9mm major or .38 super?

[nipplehead]

if 9mm was better all top shooters would use it, i bet if even 1 of the top 10 at the nationals shot 9mm we would all be surprised Also 9mm does run at extremely high pressure compared to 38 super. Just look at the primers compaired to 38 super..and yes high pressure i is harder on your gun..and that is not a smith preferance thing its a fact.

All this being said can the average guy see higher scores shooting a 9mm vs 38 super..if both guns where equal? hard to say but no one will say that the super gun would be a disadvantage.

+ 1 outer limits

Edited December 20, 2012 by nipplehead

[cylindrically challenged]

I had a .38 Super and had the pistol re-barreled and converted over to 9mm. One neat thing that the gunsmith did was throat the chamber a little longer. I can load 124 gr. RN bullets to an over all length of 1.240" and I'm just a few thousandths shy of hitting the barrel lands. Seeing as the max over all length for a .38 Super is only 1.280" there is very little difference in the performance of these two cartridges. Both have about the same internal capacity. Pressures run about the same. Brass life is a toss up. And there are always lots of 9mm brass laying about the ranges. Another advantage of the 1.240" OAL 9mm is that you do not need to run spacers in your magazines. They are almost as long as a typical .38 Super load anyways. My feed reliability has been 100% with no changes to my magazines. 9mm set up correctly and never look back.

[lcs]

if 9mm was better all top shooters would use it, i bet if even 1 of the top 10 at the nationals shot 9mm we would all be surprised Also 9mm does run at extremely high pressure compared to 38 super. Just look at the primers compaired to 38 super..and yes high pressure i is harder on your gun..and that is not a smith preferance thing its a fact.

All this being said can the average guy see higher scores shooting a 9mm vs 38 super..if both guns where equal? hard to say but no one will say that the super gun would be a disadvantage.

+ 1 outer limits

The top open shooters shoot 38S because that is what they started with and why change when you are a winning GM.

Not sure where you are getting pressure facts, but I shoot 9 Major with 115 and my primers look better than my 38sc primers did. 38S is a higher pressure load to bigin with. Depending on powders used, both 9 and 38s can be high pressure loads.

[Shadyscott999]

The biggest place where I see a difference between my 9 major gun and my SC gun is in SH/WH shooting. The SC gun is just softer and flatter even though it is lighter. Both guns are running at 177pf. The 9M with HS6 and the SC with 3n38.

I am have consistently faster splits with the SC gun verified on the timer. Needless to say, the 9M gun is relegated to a backup gun at this point.

The man reason I switched to SC has nothing to do with the above. I switched because I HATE LOADING 9 Major on my 1050. My output rate with 9M is probably less that 25% of SC. The time I spend picking up brass at a match pales in comparison to the time I save at the reloading press. That alone is reason enough for me to shoot 38SC.

[Seth Long]

I'd prefer the 38 SC, if it were cheaper. You can fit more powder, have more choices in powder, and can run more holes in the barrel to vent the gas and keep the gun flat. So if money is no object i'd be shooting SC without question.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: A 9mm can be made to shoot as soft as a 38SC if it is built correctly. JoJo Vidanes has been shooting a 9mm for a long time. A thing to remember is that alot of the top GM's get free brass, bullets or ammo. It is true that you can use more powders for 38sc but most find one and keep it. The same goes for bullet weight. If you like quick use the 115's if you like a slower push us 147's. I believe it really comes down to practice as they say. Look at the golf pros and what clubs they use. If you buy the same clubs as them you will be a pro in no time Thanks, Eric

[Shadyscott999]

Hello: A 9mm can be made to shoot as soft as a 38SC if it is built correctly. JoJo Vidanes has been shooting a 9mm for a long time. A thing to remember is that alot of the top GM's get free brass, bullets or ammo. It is true that you can use more powders for 38sc but most find one and keep it. The same goes for bullet weight. If you like quick use the 115's if you like a slower push us 147's. I believe it really comes down to practice as they say. Look at the golf pros and what clubs they use. If you buy the same clubs as them you will be a pro in no time Thanks, Eric

That could be true. I just hasn't been the case with my guns. Both were built by Jeff Abernathy, but they are very different. The SC gun is a Truebore with 4 conical holes drilled a some super secret angle. The comp also has super secret tricks done to it. The 9M gun is a SVI slide with a custom made comp and no holes, so I am not really comparing apples to apples.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Shadyscott999

[lcs]

Hello: A 9mm can be made to shoot as soft as a 38SC if it is built correctly. JoJo Vidanes has been shooting a 9mm for a long time. A thing to remember is that alot of the top GM's get free brass, bullets or ammo. It is true that you can use more powders for 38sc but most find one and keep it. The same goes for bullet weight. If you like quick use the 115's if you like a slower push us 147's. I believe it really comes down to practice as they say. Look at the golf pros and what clubs they use. If you buy the same clubs as them you will be a pro in no time Thanks, Eric

That could be true. I just hasn't been the case with my guns. Both were built by Jeff Abernathy, but they are very different. The SC gun is a Truebore with 4 conical holes drilled a some super secret angle. The comp also has super secret tricks done to it. The 9M gun is a SVI slide with a custom made comp and no holes, so I am not really comparing apples to apples.

I too thought a 9 major could not run as flat as a 38 with all kinds of barrel ports or popple holes--wrong! My 9 is as flat with 115s and no barrel holes. A lot cheaper also!

[nipplehead]

if 9mm was better all top shooters would use it, i bet if even 1 of the top 10 at the nationals shot 9mm we would all be surprised

The top open shooters shoot 38S because that is what they started with and why change when you are a winning GM.

Wow you really believe that? They can shoot whatever they want..they put guns to the only real test ...the TIMER..not how flat you percieve it all about the Timer.. At that level you are looking for any edge and it is clear by their actions what they have found.

[cylindrically challenged]

You all realize that if you're 9mm gun is throated properly--you are arguing over a maximum difference of 40 thousandths of an inch. 9mm's will easily load to 1.240" in a 2011/1911 platform. How much capacity difference is there in 40 thousandths of an inch? And that's the greatest advantage that a .38 Super can have over a 9mm. Any longer than 1.280" and the .38 Super will start binding in the magazine. More typically, people load their Supers to around 1.260-1.265" just to keep adequate magazine clearance. If you load your .38 Super and/or Super Comp to 1.260 / 1.265" now you are arguing over only 20 to 25 thousandths of an inch case capacity. Internal pressures, case life and gas production should be virtually identical.

[Shadyscott999]

You all realize that if you're 9mm gun is throated properly--you are arguing over a maximum difference of 40 thousandths of an inch. 9mm's will easily load to 1.240" in a 2011/1911 platform. How much capacity difference is there in 40 thousandths of an inch? And that's the greatest advantage that a .38 Super can have over a 9mm. Any longer than 1.280" and the .38 Super will start binding in the magazine. More typically, people load their Supers to around 1.260-1.265" just to keep adequate magazine clearance. If you load your .38 Super and/or Super Comp to 1.260 / 1.265" now you are arguing over only 20 to 25 thousandths of an inch case capacity. Internal pressures, case life and gas production should be virtually identical.

It isn't about OAL for me. It is about they type of powder and how full the case is. With 9 I am splashing powder all over the place using HS6. With SC and 3n38 nary a drop come out at 3x the speed.

[ctay]

More typically, people load their Supers to around 1.260-1.265" just to keep adequate magazine clearance.

Actually I think a very common OAL for 38super is 1.235. So I suppose more validation to your point.

I've read a lot of people shooting 9major in their 38sc chambered guns. Considering the very narrow difference in OAL I'm thinking this may not be a bad idea?

Who wouldn't want to take a chance with 36,000 psi in your hand?

[yoshidaex]

if 9mm was better all top shooters would use it, i bet if even 1 of the top 10 at the nationals shot 9mm we would all be surprised

4th place and 8th place shooters at the 2012 Open Nationals shot 9mm.

How do I know? Because Glock doesn't make mags that fit 38s for the 4th place shooter and I shoot with the 8th place shooter every weekend.

[G-ManBart]

Not sure where you are getting pressure facts, but I shoot 9 Major with 115 and my primers look better than my 38sc primers did. 38S is a higher pressure load to bigin with. Depending on powders used, both 9 and 38s can be high pressure loads.

I get my pressure data from Quickload, and it tells me that 38SC can be loaded to Major at significantly lower pressures than any 9 Major with currently available powders. My QL data is almost exactly on (projected velocity) for both my 38SC load with N105, and 9 Major load with HS-6. The 9 load is 5k psi higher at a similar PF.

[G-ManBart]

For the search impaired, there are about a dozen identical threads on this topic combined between these two threads:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=139300entry1567527

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=121879entry1377710

[nipplehead]

Not sure where you are getting pressure facts, but I shoot 9 Major with 115 and my primers look better than my 38sc primers did. 38S is a higher pressure load to bigin with. Depending on powders used, both 9 and 38s can be high pressure loads.

I get my pressure data from Quickload, and it tells me that 38SC can be loaded to Major at significantly lower pressures than any 9 Major with currently available powders. My QL data is almost exactly on (projected velocity) for both my 38SC load with N105, and 9 Major load with HS-6. The 9 load is 5k psi higher at a similar PF.

thankyou G - Man Bart felt like i was pounding sand up my ass...some people are going to believe what they believe reguardless facts...do not know why i was my energy with the obvous

Edited December 21, 2012 by nipplehead

[lcs]

Not sure where you are getting pressure facts, but I shoot 9 Major with 115 and my primers look better than my 38sc primers did. 38S is a higher pressure load to bigin with. Depending on powders used, both 9 and 38s can be high pressure loads.

I get my pressure data from Quickload, and it tells me that 38SC can be loaded to Major at significantly lower pressures than any 9 Major with currently available powders. My QL data is almost exactly on (projected velocity) for both my 38SC load with N105, and 9 Major load with HS-6. The 9 load is 5k psi higher at a similar PF.

thankyou G - Man Bart felt like i was pounding sand up my ass...some people are going to believe what they believe reguardless facts...do not know why i was my energy with the obvous

As I said, it is all about powder and loads. I never said 9 Major is not a high pressure load. BOTH 9 and 38S major loads are high pressure. Some people seem to demonize 9 Major by scaring new shooters into thinking 9 Major is going to blow up your gun because of high pressure.

G-manBart--Comparing N105 and HS6 is like comparing a 4 cylinder and a nitrous fed V8. Yep the V8 develops more pressure, but it's still safe. Compare two powders closer in burn rates.

Again--9 Major and 38S loaded to major power factors are both high pressure loads, but both are safe if the right powder and bullet combination is used.

[cylindrically challenged]

Gman Bart, What Quickload is failing to take into account is that the 9mm can be loaded to a much greater OAL in a 1911/2011 platform. Quickload has to base it's 9mm data for an OAL that will fit in Glocks & XDs, etc. and that's only 1.160". If the 9mm is loaded to the same OAL as the .38 Super with the same bullet and same powder the pressures will be similar. When you stretch the 9mm out to 1.240" you have created a whole new cartridge. If you take a .38Special case and load it to a .357 overall length you can use 357 mag. load data (so long as the ammo is being fired in a 357 revolver). .38 Super vs. 9mm is no different. What brass you use is irrelevant, it's the case capacity that will determine your pressures. On a 9mm just hang the bullet further out front to create the same case capacity.

[nipplehead]

Gman Bart, What Quickload is failing to take into account is that the 9mm can be loaded to a much greater OAL in a 1911/2011 platform. Quickload has to base it's 9mm data for an OAL that will fit in Glocks & XDs, etc. and that's only 1.160". If the 9mm is loaded to the same OAL as the .38 Super with the same bullet and same powder the pressures will be similar. When you stretch the 9mm out to 1.240" you have created a whole new cartridge. If you take a .38Special case and load it to a .357 overall length you can use 357 mag. load data (so long as the ammo is being fired in a 357 revolver). .38 Super vs. 9mm is no different. What brass you use is irrelevant, it's the case capacity that will determine your pressures. On a 9mm just hang the bullet further out front to create the same case capacity.

ok you can do that but you still cannot use N105 for example( and there are others) in that 9mm case and make major.( that particular powder is low pressure and makes more gas) in fact even in 38 super you could not get enough of that powder in the case to blow up your gun. Maybe your smarter then most cause i see a lot of spent casings out of 9mm open guns with flat primers.

[Foxbat]

There is little doubt that the 9mm will typically have higher pressure... but so what? The well built guns run and run, don't blow up, they shoot flat and the brass can easily be reloaded several times.

[Supermoto]

I've loaded 9mm to 188pf without any pressure signs using HS6. I don't see what the big deal is here. You want to pick up brass, shoot super, you want to leave your brass, shoot 9mm

[Cardinal]

Gman Bart, What Quickload is failing to take into account is that the 9mm can be loaded to a much greater OAL in a 1911/2011 platform. Quickload has to base it's 9mm data for an OAL that will fit in Glocks & XDs, etc. and that's only 1.160". If the 9mm is loaded to the same OAL as the .38 Super with the same bullet and same powder the pressures will be similar. When you stretch the 9mm out to 1.240" you have created a whole new cartridge. If you take a .38Special case and load it to a .357 overall length you can use 357 mag. load data (so long as the ammo is being fired in a 357 revolver). .38 Super vs. 9mm is no different. What brass you use is irrelevant, it's the case capacity that will determine your pressures. On a 9mm just hang the bullet further out front to create the same case capacity.

Don't think you are familiar with QL. You stipulate the OAL yourself.

So you can easily run the same OAL on 9mm and 38S with the same powder and bullet to see the pressures if you want.

[lcs]

QuickLOAD, sold by xxxxxxxx, helps reloaders understand how changing variables can affect pressures and velocities. It can predict the effect of changes in ambient temperature, bullet seating depth, and barrel length. However, QuickLOAD has limitations. It is merely a computer simulation. It doesn't account for different brands of primers for example, and its ability to predict the effect of seating bullets into the rifling is crude. You most certainly should not just "plug in" a bullet and powder and use that load, assuming it is safe

The above are not my words. Not trying to hijack the OPs thread, but it is information that's important. Not dumping on QuickLOAD either. There are just many variables to consider.

You are going to pay about the same for any custom 2011 Open 9 or 38. If both are 5.5 inch barrels and have the same comps, there are numerous powders and bullet combinations that make each about equal. There is no gain in accuracy or reliability for either gun (if configured correctly).

The bottom line -What is in your wallet and what are your goals? If you don't care about cost and your goal is to be the top GM in open, I give an edge to 38s, otherwise 9 Major has the edge.

[nipplehead]

ok so bottom line 9mm only advantage is it good if you dont want to pick up brass and it would be cheaper if you did not pick up your38 super brass...but since38 super shooters do , super can and will be cheaper. 9mm can be as realable as a 38super gun but the majority of guns with feeding or ejection problems are more likely to be 9mm. Infact i know 9mm shooters that have gone to the sideways mount only to eliminatie malfunctions. yea that sums it up

[bassochist]

let's forget about brass costs for a minute:

which caliber shoots better?

i shot both, i like both, they both work reliable, the super is a little more easy to reload.

there is no superior cartridge in this comparison, just pick one and go shoot it.