Nimitz Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Yeah, great idea to contact your AD .... I don't think waiting for folks to show up with 9mm minor open guns and shoot them in open would work. You can be competitive without being viable to win your division at a match. Why go shoot a division where you know before you pull the trigger for the first time you are at a disadvantage? I also don't buy the whole " I'm just here for fun" argument either .... This is a competition and to some degree everyone is competitive. Show me someone who has never looked at their score after a match and then I'll believe it."You can be competitive without being viable to win your division at a match."This makes no sense to me. Maybe it's just my perspective. But, if I am not viable threat to win, then I don't believe I am competitive. if you take the narrow perspective that being "competitive" only is defined as having a shot at winning an event then 99% of all shooters in all divisions are "not competitive" .... i think THAT may fall into the catagory of not making sense ... Edited February 13, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Polymer Optics, for the win!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 The fourth point is just silly. A gun for PO wont be cheaper than shooting in Open, because (surprise!) exactly the same gun will be ok in Open. Creating a new division so that some people can be just a little more competitive seems like a waste of time. I'm not so certain that I agree. I think the past 14 years have shown us that an awful lot of platforms could be driven to GM cards and/or Nationals wins in Production..... Adding a dot to a production gun, without adding a comp or major scoring or 20-30 rounds mags, shouldn't really change that reality...... The current flavor appears to be for heavy steel framed guns. Pretty sure that didn't suddenly put all of the polymer frame, striker action competitors at a huge disadvantage.... I shoot Open occasionally with a Glock 19 with a laser. Surprise -- its not competitive, even though it fits in the division. Creating PO would give us a second red dot division that doesn't entirely favor expensive race guns..... I'd be up for a three year trial run.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 kinda correct, SS had their nationals as an independent tournament run by the 1911 society for years prior to uspsa obtaining it, And nostalgia had a lot to do with it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 kinda correct, SS had their nationals as an independent tournament run by the 1911 society for years prior to uspsa obtaining it,And nostalgia had a lot to do with it....... Thank you Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 So, why don't the guys (you know who you are) plan a match, post it all over the interweb machine, get Glock, S&W, and whoever makes slide mounted optics to donate some gear for a prize table, and make it happen? Its a proof of concept and a way to get feedback on proposed rules and from the manufacturers. Get 150 people to show up (we've had more than that show up to locals with no prize table) and I'll be a believer. I'd even write my area director and el presidente himself voicing my support. I think a lot of USPSA shooters feel like we already have enough (too many?) low participation divisions. This way interest would be demonstrated, bugs would be worked out, and the mass of USPSA could see and believe. The model I have seen proposed, "if you build it they will come", doesn't seem to be working that well for Revo and L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I think a Production Optics major match would be awesome. I'll bet the gun/dot companies would get on board as the are trying to open a new market. I'd be onboard to help, but with my work schedule no way I could run/organize the whole thing. I'm betting I can come up with a 10 bay range in 1 phone call. Think South Florida in the winter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 now we're getting somewhere ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 kinda correct, SS had their nationals as an independent tournament run by the 1911 society for years prior to uspsa obtaining it,And nostalgia had a lot to do with it....... Thank you Gary I wasn't trying to suggest that it was a terrible idea...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 And neither was I, Trying to lure Mr Stevens into the actual story of SS, and how the rocky road was navigated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 BritinUSA/Paul Please PM me your phone number as you are not set up to receive PM's ZH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I am purely talking IPSC as I don't shoot USPSA, but it seems the attitude to the proposed "division" seems the same. Talking to a few guy's here in Australia over the weekend at our State Champs (260+ competitors) the biggest thing about it seems to be it's title, Production Optic's, the first thing that comes up is "doesn't belong in Production stick it in Open", And I probably agree for a trial surely there is a method of tagging in the scoring system to do that so they are only shooting against each other. Other than that if you explain the concept of (IPSC) Production listed gun with slide mounted optic only the acceptance of the concept seems a little easier. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 From the March Minutes: LINK Discussion of proposed new division – Optic non-compedThe BOD will formulate a plan forward to implement a provisional division of Carry Optics to address the growth of lightweight carry pistols with integrated slide-mounted electronic sights. This plan will outline firearm specifications, classifier implementation, and other administrative needs that would need to be addressed.The division will be evaluated after one year based on member participation and growth. I'm not keen on the name Carry Optics, maybe Factory Optics instead? I'm assuming that they just don't want the word Production in the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Factory Optics? Kind of like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 From the March Minutes: LINK Discussion of proposed new division – Optic non-comped The BOD will formulate a plan forward to implement a provisional division of Carry Optics to address the growth of lightweight carry pistols with integrated slide-mounted electronic sights. This plan will outline firearm specifications, classifier implementation, and other administrative needs that would need to be addressed. The division will be evaluated after one year based on member participation and growth. I'm not keen on the name Carry Optics, maybe Factory Optics instead? I'm assuming that they just don't want the word Production in the title. I think I like the Carry Optics title. Factory Optics, IMO, means the gun must be "as purchased" from the manufacturer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'll be very interested to see what the rules look like, I hope they get away from the Gun list + approved modification format. its nearly impossible to enforce as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'm hoping for some kind of restrictions on the guns as I think it helps to keep the costs down for the competitor, my goal in promoting this and writing the original proposal was essentially a low cost alternative to Open division. I'm pleased with this announcement and that it will be evaluated for a year, if it doesn't work out then we can trash it. I'm okay with that. I'm calling this a win… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'm hoping for some kind of restrictions on the guns as I think it helps to keep the costs down for the competitor, my goal in promoting this and writing the original proposal was essentially a low cost alternative to Open division. I'm pleased with this announcement and that it will be evaluated for a year, if it doesn't work out then we can trash it. I'm okay with that. I'm calling this a win… Congratulations on your win. I hope it means greater membership/sponsorships for our organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Congratulations on your win. I hope it means greater membership/sponsorships for our organization. I hope for the same thing, thats the objective after all, to grow the sport. Hopefully we can get some measurements from the evaluation period and either tweak or trash depending on the results. Either way I think its a worthwhile experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Just FYI, the language that got posted in the minutes is not the language approved by the Board. We didn't actually land in as specific a spot as that statement would indicate, and there is currently no timeline or commitment. We *are* reviewing options and, if we can reach consensus on some of the bigger facets, *may* proceed to formulate a plan. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Just FYI, the language that got posted in the minutes is not the language approved by the Board. We didn't actually land in as specific a spot as that statement would indicate, and there is currently no timeline or commitment. We *are* reviewing options and, if we can reach consensus on some of the bigger facets, *may* proceed to formulate a plan. Bruce I think you just put a damper on BritinUSA's day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Gosh, I hope not. The good news is that the Board is actively engaged in figuring out how to give this a try. That we haven't landed on a specific plan yet is not the same as "we're not going to do it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'm hoping for some kind of restrictions on the guns as I think it helps to keep the costs down for the competitor, I think that was the intention of Production as well. Now, Stock IIs are how much? Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 So what changed the Board's mind? If I remember correctly when this came up for a vote a couple of months ago everyone voted against it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The number of companies offering these types of guns is increasing so I think there is a potential avenue of growth for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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