Production optics

[atbarr]

For some reason or other this thread, never shows up in 'View New Content'.

That's because it's the same old s#!t over and over again!

Yep, from both sides.

[kmca]

How much would a Production Optics provisional Division cost the association?

[BritinUSA]

How much would a Production Optics provisional Division cost the association?

Good question, I'm not sure of the answer but as best I can figure, the following would need to change:

• A .pdf document with the provisional rules in it, The rule-set is in my proposal document. I don't see a need to publish a new rule-book, as its only provisional so a downloadable appendix would suffice.
• The Match Results mechanism on the USPSA web-site would need to be updated, not sure how involved that would be.
• The Classification mechanism would also need an update
• Practiscore would need an update

I can't think of any more off the top of my head. I think the biggest update/cost would be software related regarding results/classification processing.

[Jaycwebb]

I would totally shoot this division. Sounds like a lot of fun .

[Nimitz]

since it's a provisional division I wouldn't think you would do anything to the classification system ...? If the division becomes permanent after a year you have all the recorded data and could then update the classification system. I wouldn't recommend doing a lot of work that could be scraped ...

[2MoreChains]

One of my local clubs hosts an annual Glocks Only match which is essentially a USPSA match with regard to stage design, scoring, rules, etc... The main difference is the guns used must be a Glock frame with the divisions categorized by size (fullsize, compact, sub, and optics). In the 2014 match there were 9 competitors that registered in "Optics" division out of 104 shooters, or 8.6%. Most of them were slide mounted RDS ranging from Zev'd out Glocks with a Trijicon or RTS on the slide to a basic G17 with Burris FFII mounted to the rear dovetail. IIRC one competitor was shooting a Glockworx Open gun that has a frame mounted C-more and comp.

Fullsize division using traditional iron sights on a G17/34/35 was by far the most common platform used with 76 competitors, 5 in Compact, 2 in subcompact, and 12 were shooting non-Glocks. So to have 9 show up with a RDS'ed Glock is not a bad turn out. I probably should mention that most of the Optics shooters are also Open shooters and most are middlin' age with decent eye-sight. I think they shot Optics because a) they had a gun with RDS, and it was one of the available divisions.

[BritinUSA]

So to have 9 show up with a RDS'ed Glock is not a bad turn out.

Thanks for posting that information, although its only a single match it shows that some people have the gear already. Maybe one day they'll get to shoot them in USPSA Production/Optics.

[2MoreChains]

Well, at least two of the Zev'd Glocks had all the slide lightening mods and triggers that would not be Prod legal, but thought you might be interested. I wasn't paying much attention to the other years but seems like there's been some interest in shooting Optics in the previous matches. At another club's weekly Steel Challenge matches we get a few people showing up now and then with slide mounted RDS. A young lady showed up last week with a M&P equipped Burris FFII and did quite well for just getting started in SC. Its there, albeit not in significant numbers but then again we haven't been pushing it either.

[trgt]

Since there isn't a division to build or buy for yet, its hard to expect fully compliant rigs to already be running. When i had my slide milled for a DeltaPoint before I was fully aware of the thread/discussion on production optics, I thought what the heck and had Magna-Port put a quad port on it, because the only division I'd ever run it in allows it. If there were the PO division, I wouldn't have put the ports in since PO would be a much better home for me to run this in a match. Similarly, when I run it now, I'll probably go larger mags as long as I'm running in Open, since its allowed. But I'd be fully fine running 10 rounds production style, again if there were a PO division.

[Nimitz]

Exactly, to expect waves of shooters to show up with guns that would be legal in a yet to be created PO division is not realistic. Most folks are just not going to be 'lead from the front' types and will wait for the provisional div to be created before they spend any money to get involved .... Like it or not, most likely this will need to be a 'build it and they will come' project ....

[BritinUSA]

... most likely this will need to be a 'build it and they will come' project ....

I built mine, 10 round mags and all, totally Production Optics compliant.... I have a dream but currently no corn field....

People will come, Ray. They'll come to Iowa for reasons they can't even fathom.

They'll turn up your driveway not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. "Of course, we won't mind if you look around", you'll say, "It's only $20 per person". They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk out to the bleachers; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon.

They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the baselines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces.

People will come Ray.

The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time.

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again. Oh...people will come Ray. People will most definitely come.

[zhunter]

S&W C.O.R.E is now approved for Production

[ZackJones]

S&W C.O.R.E is now approved for Production

Well I'll be damned I wonder when that happened?

From the USPSA.ORG web site:

M&P Core .40S&W 4.25 barrel (24 oz.)

M&P Core .40S&W 5 in barrel (26 oz.)

M&P Core 9mm 4.25 Barrel (24 oz.)

M&P Core 9mm 5 inch barrel (26 oz.)

[motosapiens]

Exactly, to expect waves of shooters to show up with guns that would be legal in a yet to be created PO division is not realistic. Most folks are just not going to be 'lead from the front' types and will wait for the provisional div to be created before they spend any money to get involved .... Like it or not, most likely this will need to be a 'build it and they will come' project ....

I agree with this, and it means we can sort of discard the argument that some have been using that this division will attract new-to-uspsa shooters who already have these guns.

However there's clearly some interest in it. There's been some discussion on our local forum and several people (who I know are division-hoppers, lol) are pretty supportive.

I think a provisional division status is a reasonable idea, and britinusa's attempt at the rules is a great place to start. But I still wonder if there is really room for so many divisions when only 3 of them get significant numbers around here (more than 2 shooters per match). Is it different other places? are all the divisions well-represented? Can a normal match really support 7 divisions?

[trgt]

... But I still wonder if there is really room for so many divisions when only 3 of them get significant numbers around here (more than 2 shooters per match). Is it different other places? are all the divisions well-represented? Can a normal match really support 7 divisions?

Here’s competitor count by division for matches in June for 3 different Northern California places I go. Some folks will go to both Concord and Rchmond, but very little overlap Sacramento to the others. Also when Richmond has run night matches there are at least 40+ folks to those (mostly production and limited rigs with tactical rails for light/lasers)

Sacramento / NCPS (6/22)

15 - Open

15 - Limited

10 - Limited 10

21 - Production

4 - Single Stack

3 - Revolver

Concord / DAP (6/8)

16 - Open

18 - Limited

9 - Limited 10

31 - Production

12 - Single Stack

0 - Revolver

Richmond (6/1) (lots of folks showed up that day)

30 - Open

32 - Limited

9 - Limited 10

22 - Production

11 - Single Stack

1 - Revolver

Edited July 31, 2014 by trgt

[motosapiens]

... But I still wonder if there is really room for so many divisions when only 3 of them get significant numbers around here (more than 2 shooters per match). Is it different other places? are all the divisions well-represented? Can a normal match really support 7 divisions?

Here’s competitor count by division for matches in June for 3 different Northern California places I go. Some folks will go to both Concord and Rchmond, but very little overlap Sacramento to the others. Also when Richmond has run night matches there are at least 40+ folks to those (mostly production and limited rigs with tactical rails for light/lasers)

Good info, thanks for posting that. It makes sense that in a limited capacity state you'd see more folks shooting L10, but the healthy singlestack numbers at some of the matches are cool too. I'd probably shoot singlestack if I were ever motivated to shoot a match in california.

[Nimitz]

I get that for mag capacity limited states you'd still want a division like L10 or SS but I'm not sure we need both and Revo ....here locally where we don't have those issues we rarely, if ever even see 1 shooter in L10, SS or Revo. The only time we see anyone is during our once a year classifier match ....

It seems to me that relative to the other divisions, L10 is the most redundant and therefore could be eliminated with the least impact if you wanted to not increase the total number of divisions ...

[kmca]

Why do some people want to eliminate a division? Does it cost more to retain one?

[motosapiens]

Why do some people want to eliminate a division? Does it cost more to retain one?

Why do some people want to have a division for every imaginable pistol? I shoot singlestack 1/3 of the time, but I'd be happy to see it rolled into L10. Only thing it would change for me is I'd have to buy a couple more 10-rd mags. Maybe keep SS and revo for specific matches only? Or just eliminate L10 and use the max capacity for that state as the max for open and limited?

I dunno. I guess in the long run it doesn't really matter. At local matches I ignore the divisions anyway and just look at the overall.

[Nik Habicht]

I get that for mag capacity limited states you'd still want a division like L10 or SS but I'm not sure we need both and Revo ....here locally where we don't have those issues we rarely, if ever even see 1 shooter in L10, SS or Revo. The only time we see anyone is during our once a year classifier match ....

It seems to me that relative to the other divisions, L10 is the most redundant and therefore could be eliminated with the least impact if you wanted to not increase the total number of divisions ...

Cool. As long as we modify SS rules to take all SS, not just 1911s......

[TGO]

I wonder.....My original thought was to consider that optical sights are an inevitability. But I never meant exclusive to practical competition pistols. On many pistols, and for many uses the optical sights solve some problems. They of course cause some. Optical production, or for that matter optical any division, would be interesting if the devices did not become, dare I say it, Impractical?? Let me explain. Take me. I have been a proponent of iron sights for most of my career. The reason being open guns had developed beyond the level where they were usable devices beyond the competition range. I have in comparison lost interest in them compared to the other divisions. That's just me. Also, no way a manufacturer is going to try to sell mainstream anything that even remotely resembles our open guns. It's not that I do not like shooting them, just that I don't like how silly and specialized they have become. I'm sure to many if not most non-competition shooters, most of our guns for any division are thought of this way. But I don't like F1 cars either.

Open guns have however, indeed pushed the development of several performance enhancements. Magazine capacity, sighting and recoil control improvements have been the result. However, the idea of mounting a sight similar to our open guns is unlikely to show up on the guns you see on the shelves at your local gunshop. And that's ok, it's just not progress enough for me. And maybe that's ok also. Understand that it's not improvement of the equipment I don't like, but the limit of applications some of the resulting devices have in the rest of the shooting market.

I do not want to loose any of the divisions we now have, except maybe L10, but is there a way we can stimulate development of practical, sale able optical sights for the mainstream market by finding a way to allow their use in competition on other than our open guns??? You'd be unlikely to come across an ar15 in serious use that doesn't have an optical sight, so wouldn't the availability of a cheap, tough and reliable optical sight for your pistol actually be a cool thing??

Consider this possibility; Allow optional use of optical sights in production for those who want to, and simply exclude these shooters results from eligibility of winning the division awards? Classes, overalls etc would be to the current equipment rules unchanged. So the good eyes are still gonna win the coveted titles but allow then, the seniors and juniors and ladies and LE and whatever to use optics. The trick and difficulty will be to limit what sights and how they are mounted to keep them from becoming like our open division is now. Keep those things to realistic, multi use levels, and see if anyone wants to try it. So, you (or I) can win sub categories, but not class awards. Does this hurt us in anyway?? I'd say you must not change any of the rules except the box would have to be modified to allow the gun to fit with the sight mounted in the prescribed location. Could be no heavier or otherwise larger or modified except to allow installation of the optic on the gun. So no extra weight allowed, size limited to say, 1 inch above slide, and see what that gets you??

This is already the most popular variation of optics on handguns now in service except for scopes on hunting revolvers. I bet that changes, and optics on service type pistols becomes the most popular in the near future.. Many serious users of handguns are looking at optics as a way to improve performance of duty, tactical and defensive, not to mention sporting and recreational handguns. Ok, now what does everyone think about this..

Rob

[Dhaught]

I say new division. Produciton Optics. We keep dragging around SS and REV, there's like 5 guys shooting SS and 2-3 shooting REV at every local match I go to, so why not open another division for something that is really gaining popularity. S&W and FN have already offered factory guns with milled slides for RMR's, anyone else? I say make it a division for otherwise production legal guns that have some type of slide mounted mini red dots whether its' dovetail mounted or recessed mounted.

Besides, it's not a division for every type of pistol but it would reflect some forward thinking on the part of the USPSA. Slide mounted red dot's are common enough now for factory guns to be made to accept them. Tons of people have been getting their slides milled and adding the sights to even their carry guns. People are moving forward and embracing new technology and that should be reflected by the shooting sports.

[Jadeslade]

Ok, now what does everyone think about this..

Rob

I like this idea a lot. A whole lot. No rules changes, except the box. Not winning division awards mollifies those who object in principle to production optics. TGO explains better than I possibly could about guns, open guns, production optics, etc. Excellent review. Not sure about the 1". Maybe a little higher.

[Glshooter]

I'm all for it. I have had a Glock with a slide mounted J-point for a number of years. Never a place to shoot it except some local steel matches. A lot of shooters I know would love to get into open but can't justify the cost of a good open gun. But most have a production type gun laying around and could afford a couple hundred bucks for a slide mounted optic.

[Steve RA]

Only thing I don't like about it is that I have a couple of 1911s with slide mounted FF IIIs and don't own any production guns.