Club Match Shooters - Consumers vs Helpers

[Maksim]

The thing that bugs me most... is people bitching at registration why the match does not start on time at 10am. Obviously the match staff are taking as long as possible because they want to waste more time at the range.

Tear down is pretty good, but it is tough to consistently get 6 quality stages designed, and enough people to come show up early and help. Best of all, the shooters that come, see you working on the stage, do not offer to help, and at the same time, go around to look at the stages before the match starts. lol.

I get it from both sides... but local matches are all volunteer.

Your club is the only one I hear people complaining in this manner. Maybe people don't want to do anything extra to help you guys because the people at your club are the least friendly in the entire section, or possibly all of Area 8.

The later you start, and the longer (5 weeks) it takes to get results posted, and the fact you don't upload scores to the USPSA website just further turns more and more people off from wanting to volunteer. I don't blame people for shooting and scooting if that is the kind of product that is being offered.

Shoot and scoot is not a problem at the club, neither is help during the match for the most part. My issue is stage setup while a few will always sit on their bums complaining. Don't get me wrong, it is a few of the same people, not the people who consistently come out and shoot at other clubs.

As far as results... they are typically up within a week unless the person doing the scores (me) is away and someone else does them. But in any case, since when did USPSA turn into.... I will offer to help only if I like the way everything is done?

The other option is..... there is no match.

Much like the match that is this coming up this week, questionable if it will be here due to a number of MD's still without power. Quite Frankly, being MD is a thankless job for a club the size of CJ, where we have anywhere from 60 to 90 shooters on a consistent basis now.

[Chris iliff]

Seems to me that we are not communicating.

This is a volunteer sport. We should be repeating that mantra over and over. Nothing happens without volunteers in this sport.

[Supermoto]

And I'm tired if listening to people bitching when they show up at 10:30 and are pissed off because the stages aren't ready for them yet. If there is MDs setup crews ROs getting paid that's great but that isn't the norm. If you show up at 10:30 and the stages aren't done yet guess what get your lazy ass out of bed and help. If not STFU.

It is not the shooters fault that the MD was not prepared for the match. It is their responsibility to have the match start on time. They need to have staff in place and ready to go before the match. If you have people sitting in the parking lot and you need help, go ask for help. Don't complain and belittle them unless you have approached them and they refused to help.

Passive aggressive complaining does nothing to help the match. Proactive preperation is what makes a good match

[steel1212]

1352059081[/url]' post='1809260']

1352041856[/url]' post='1809149']

And I'm tired if listening to people bitching when they show up at 10:30 and are pissed off because the stages aren't ready for them yet. If there is MDs setup crews ROs getting paid that's great but that isn't the norm. If you show up at 10:30 and the stages aren't done yet guess what get your lazy ass out of bed and help. If not STFU.

It is not the shooters fault that the MD was not prepared for the match. It is their responsibility to have the match start on time. They need to have staff in place and ready to go before the match. If you have people sitting in the parking lot and you need help, go ask for help. Don't complain and belittle them unless you have approached them and they refused to help.

Passive aggressive complaining does nothing to help the match. Proactive preperation is what makes a good match

You understand what the word volunteer means? That MD your talking about can't force anybody to do anything unless they VOLUNTEER! If people don't VOLUNTEER there is nobody to do any of the work! If nobody if people show up to the match the first thing they should do is sign in and then go help set things up. It seems like to many in this sport are in the mind set like you in that they pay their money they can just show up and shoot and nothing gets done that way. That's cool though the more people that think like that the less work I'll have to do as their won't be a USPSA anymore as all the real volunteers will just quit. Why work your ass off for others benefit and get nothing out of it.

Edited November 4, 2012 by steel1212

[Supermoto]

I do, and no where does it say being a volunteer excuses you from doing the job you said you would.

An effective MD runs a match like it is a business, producing a product people will want. He gets people to volunteer, doesnt try to force out those who don't. he is prepared before the match.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Supermoto

[steel1212]

1352071805[/url]' post='1809375']

I do, and no where does it say being a volunteer excuses you from doing the job you said you would.

You just don't get it do you? Those of that are volunteering aren't complaining about doing the job we said we would do! What we are saying is everybody that is shooting this sport needs to be volunteers not I paid so gimmie gimmie gimmie!

FYI before you get the idea I have an entire crew to design stages, RO, scores etc. I just get them all together. The less people volunteer though who you gonna get to replace them.

At any chance I'm gonna bow out of this thread, again I think. Your either gonna have those that will work so the sport will continue or those that feel they don't have to and the sport won't.

[Hamm]

As I read this thread. Some of u guys don't get what a Volunteer is cause i guess you have never stepped up to help make a match run. I sure hope you don't end up on a squad with me cause if u don't work I don't paste your target u can do it yourself right before you shoot it. We all need to work to make these matches run smooth. Not just a few. If u cant help cause life gets in the way go buy u a boat and go fishing.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Hamm

[redial]

I don't get this "product" issue. We're not selling anything to anyone. The entry fee is not a wage paid to people to put on a match for your amusement. When a MD schedules an event, he's under no obligation to provide a service to you - he's agreed to DONATE his time to try to coordinate all the necessities of a typical match. He's a volunteer.

Before demanding a menu of "products" a MD is expected to provide, a person should DONATE a season of his time as a MD.

Mark

[leas327]

I have been both. I try to be a helper all the time but sometimes my life gets in the way. When I can, I am one of the first through the gate, bust my hump and help set-up. But twice this year my wife asked me not to leave the house until 8 a.m. so she could sleep a little longer before she had the kids all day by herself. (I chalked this up to "Happy Wife, Happy Life") It is about an 1.5-2 hr drive to the match so I pretty much paid and shot. I always try to RO now that I am certified. If I am not on the timer or clipboard I reset steel and paste. The last squad of the day is responsible for teardown. But I have seen some scooters.

The club that is closer to me is a private range that is part of a farm. $20 gets you 5 stages, 2 field, 2 medium, 1 classifier. You show up anytime 9-5. Stages were built during the week, if you need an R.O. they will send one with you. Most people show up with their friends and shoot as a small squad. If there is one or two guys by themselves a squad will welcome them to join in the group. It is pretty laid back. Everyone pastes and resets There is no tear down. I now feel even luckier to shoot there.

The first squad I was ever a part of had Flex, Chad, Conrad, and Seevers on it. I never knew that not helping was an option. Maybe the best bet is to not worry about the old dogs that are set in their ways and focus on proper training of the young pups that are new to the sport.

[euanga]

I have wondered how big a sport needs get before it get to a professional basis. Seeing that both the major players have close to 25k members each, why not make it more professional like soccer. You have a professional cadre of paid staff like Ro's and set up people. They are scheduled to work and get paid.

the places i shoot USPSA get 60-100 shooters a match. 60x$20=1200. Take a little out of that and hire some folks to do the setup and Ro'ing. everyone pays the same.

would this idea fly??

The maths is not as simple as splitting the 1200. Many ranges charge the action sports clubs to use them (in theory they could rent the space for LE or Training). So that digs into thr 1200. Then the club has to pay for targets, steel is not cheap and a 200 rd match probably means 80-90 cardboard targets.

Then you have to decide who gets paid? The registration guy? The stats guys? The match director? Range Master? How many RO's? 2 per squad? Do they have to be certified? What happens if not enough certified ROs turn up for the match do the non-pro standins get paid?

Most matches round here the ROs, Stats, Setup etc guys get a break on entry, between 5 and 20 bucks depending on club and role, how is that any different?

[tessmaureen]

Our sport is not one of a service. We all pay for the opportunity to participate. That opportunity does not relieve us of our responsibility to do our part. We should all ask what we can do to help. If it is with stage design, registration, set up, etc. There is no excuse for not helping reset or paste. We do ask people for help that are not helping but we shouldn't have to. It's obvious help is needed, it's communicated, so if people decide not to do it, it is with complete knowledge of their failure. We have people who have physical ailments that aren't expected to do the heavy lifting or things that might compromise them.

Our MD asks for help repeatedly. He is a volunteer that gives his time, and plans, plans, plans. He is always there, early and late. He doesn't have any magic wand to force people to do what they say they are going to do, however. I'm sure he wishes he did. If 10 people promise to set up and only 5 show up, that isn't because he lacked planning skills. And what recourse does he actually have???

I think before anyone complains that things aren't going right, they should take a good hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they have given or what they could give. If someone else is giving 150% and you are giving 25%, then do you really have room to complain?

With that said, I think the shooting community is one of the best out there. Overall, we have the most awesome people that you could ask for. If we all strive to be the best we can be, then our sport will continue to soar.

[want2race]

Leas327, I completely understand the 8 o'clock thing.

I've missed many matches because I either couldn't get there in time to help, or because I didn't have the time after to tear down. It wasn't just because I didn't have time to shoot it.

Rio is the only club I've ever been to that didn't use squading. Very ready to be a consumer when you show up anytime, shoot whatever is available, finish whenever, then leave. I prefer squads.

Supermoto, your opinion on this is unique. You must go to large clubs with people fighting to be MD.

Edited November 5, 2012 by want2race

[want2race]

Double

Edited November 5, 2012 by want2race

[Supermoto]

Supermoto, your opinion on this is unique. You must go to large clubs with people fighting to be MD.

I came from an Area (A7) were the matches were run professionally by the MDs (myself included). We prepared in advance for the match, made sure we had the staff needed to run the match shooters expected. A match that started on time, ran smoothly and did not run late. If 10 people were needed, 15 people were asked to commit. Excuses weren't made or needed.

A few years back, during the shooters meeting the MD said there will be no match next month unless I get X amount of people to commit right now to working it. He was proactive.

The A7 director approached me at a match saying there would be no winter matches unless I ran them. He was proactive. He gave enough lead time so I could be proactive and get a staff in place to help. See the theme here? We worked beforehand so we didn't have to complain afterwards.

When you try to put the blame on the "consumers" then you have failed as a MD.

[Loop51]

When you try to put the blame on the "consumers" then you have failed as a MD.

First off, I am still pretty new to this sport but I have a lot of hobbies and have never found better people than at a USPSA match...

I guess I don't understand people who are "consumers" really. To me, it only makes sense that if you can physically help, you should. Maybe I was raised different, I don't know, but that's how I see it. NOBODY is getting paid to be there, especially at a local Level 1 match. We help out because we love the sport. We want to ensure we have a great match and that all of those "consumers" have a good time and want to come back and shoot with us.

Our club has a great MD and lots of awesome helpers...Do the same guys (and gals) do most of the work, yep but just yesterday we had a BUNCH of new people step up and help us put the match together. They (as new shooters) didn't show up and say "well, I paid my money, why would I do any WORK". They chose not to be "consumers". They saw what was being done, made a personal investment into the match and got to work and in talking to them, they all had a great time. NOBODY mentioned how it was stupid to have to work for something you pay to do, nobody.

On the note of professionalism...

I don't know how you can say a match is more "professional" because an MD threatens to not have one unless people commit to helping. Maybe that is needed but it certainly doesn't make it any more professionally ran than an MD who puts together a great match and has faith that their are good people who will show up to make it all possible. Again, nobody is paid here, we rely on good people to make our sport run and grow.

I invite you to come shoot our club on any given month. If you think our matches are less "professional" than any other club match you have shot, I will pay your entry fee and buy you dinner for your trouble...

Here is a link to our club... BGSL Pistol Club

Edited November 5, 2012 by Loop51

[twodelta]

This is a volunteer sport. We're not selling a product. The match fees are used to run the match, make the berms better, build props, etc.... which in turn makes the future matches better for the shooters (not consumers). We don't get paid to do this other than reduced fees. It's definitly not worth the $15 match fee and losing 2 extra hours of sleep, but somebody has to do it so I volunteer to help.

Yes, you have to ask for help sometimes, but Corey prepares well in advance for the match. He couldn't make it yesterday, so we all stepped up and filled in where needed. There's about 10 of us that send in stages to use, and we are responsible for our stage if it's picked. We get there early and setup, and tear down all the stages when we're done. We still have people that show up an hour early and watch us setup the stages, and those same people leave as soon as they're done shooting. I'll ask them to go get some sticks, walls, props, etc... and maybe one of five will help.

We used two of my wifes stages yesterday, and she didn't even shoot(4 months pregnant). We have another lady that helps setup, does registration, scores for our squad, and she didn't shoot yesterday either. I guess it's just a different mentality for different clubs.

[CAB33]

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

I agree 100%, works very well.

Now we just need a solution for set up.

[Supermoto]

Yes, you have to ask for help sometimes, but Corey prepares well in advance for the match. He couldn't make it yesterday, so we all stepped up and filled in where needed. There's about 10 of us that send in stages to use, and we are responsible for our stage if it's picked. We get there early and setup, and tear down all the stages when we're done. We still have people that show up an hour early and watch us setup the stages, and those same people leave as soon as they're done shooting. I'll ask them to go get some sticks, walls, props, etc... and maybe one of five will help.

Some people just won't help, it's not going to change, but you volunteered to work the match, not them. So the obligation is on you to build that stage, not them. No where in uspsa does it say you have to help in order to be able to shoot. So your resentment, anger or dissappointment in the consumers is misplaced.

[Dan Hefta]

The lack of help with all aspects to running matches is what burns MD's out... That's it... and a thank you once in a while doesn't hurt either!

[West Texas Granny]

What rule in the rule book allows the non reporting of scores because someone didn't help out setting up.

It's human nature with groups that a small percentage does the majority of work. Not ever going to change. While it would be nice if 100% of the group pitched in its simply not going to happen. One also has to ask if you have 50 shooters show up do you really want all 50 running around throwing up stages without supervision.

[remoandiris]

Now we just need a solution for set up.

We're lucky we can setup during the week. George and I are going down this p.m. to setup a stage just for YOU!!! You mentioned bay 2 to George. Guess what bay we're going to do? I'm sure your iron sights will get a workout if you come Saturday. Tammie won't have any problems.

[remoandiris]

The lack of help with all aspects to running matches is what burns MD's out... That's it... and a thank you once in a while doesn't hurt either!

+1.

[remoandiris]

What rule in the rule book allows the non reporting of scores because someone didn't help out setting up.

It is right above the rule that says all clubs must upload match results to USPSA.

[E K]

OK I read the posts about how some just can't help. I get that. But at my match the consumers are just that, consumers. I have some that just won't help no matter how much I spell it out in the shooters meeting that it is expected. I have told them that not helping is in poor taste. Then I have others who will look me dead in the eye and say, "I have other things to do so I'm out of here". I also have other things to do but it is always me and two other guys left standing on the range when all is said and done. My time is just as valuable as anybody else's but I'm willing to sacrifice to make the matches work. I'll only be MD for one more full season and then probably lean towards becoming a consumer.

Your situation makes me cringe. It would be really hard for me to continue to bust my hump every month putting on a match if the majority of the shooters didn't help make it happen.

And it isn't as though we have low attendance matches. We average anywhere from 75-100 shooters per month for our local matches! People more concerned with picking up brass than pasting is another good one. You can say something to them all you want. They do as they please.

[bbbean]

Reading these comments sure does make me appreciate the shooters at our club. While we do have a few folks who like to talk more than they like to setup/paste/paint/tear down/etc., the vast majority of our shooters show up early, help set up, paste and reset, and stick around most matches to help tear down.

BB