Sights returning

[Blackstone45]

Hi all, I've read through several threads regarding regaining sight alignment after recoil. The general consensus seems to be, there's no use fighting the recoil, and that if you have neutral tension, the front sight should fall back down into the rear sight notch. I have got the recoil going straight up, but it won't drop back down. There's no diagonal movement at all, I just end up with the gun pointed upwards. I then have to make a conscious effort to bring the front sight back down into alignment. Am I not canting the support hand enough? I'm trying to use the thumbs forward grip.

[toothguy]

Hi all, I've read through several threads regarding regaining sight alignment after recoil. The general consensus seems to be, there's no use fighting the recoil, and that if you have neutral tension, the front sight should fall back down into the rear sight notch. I have got the recoil going straight up, but it won't drop back down. There's no diagonal movement at all, I just end up with the gun pointed upwards. I then have to make a conscious effort to bring the front sight back down into alignment. Am I not canting the support hand enough? I'm trying to use the thumbs forward grip.

It sounds like the gun maybe shifting in your grip. Keep working on strengthening your grip and you might try some grip tape, or Pro Grip lotion.

[LexTalionis]

Ya, what toothguy said. But specifically, strengthen your grip in your support hand. It's easy to tighten up with your strong hand, but you can't really afford to do that much without affecting your trigger control. The support hand is where you can really clamp down.

[benos]

It may be a matter of just shooting a little bit more...

be

[Ssanders224]

It may be a matter of just shooting a little bit more...

be

I find that this solves soooo many shooting (and non-shooting) related problems.

[CHA-LEE]

I have found that if the recoil spring is too light the front sight will stay high after the shot and the slide has completed its cycle. This only happens when I use a 6lb or lower recoil spring though. Basically the stronger your grip the lighter your recoil spring can be and still maintain proper sight lift and return. If you have a weak grip and you allow the gun to shift in your hand during recoil then you will need a lot stiffer recoil spring to snap the gun back down as the slide comes back forward. This is mainly why the stock springs in pistols are way over sprung. A really stiff recoil spring will allow the gun to continue to cycle properly even with the worst grip known to man.

The more I shoot and learn about shooting I have found that the stronger your "Firm" grip is, the sooner the front sight returns to an aligned state post shot, and you can use lighter recoil springs. I don't mean that you should death grip the gun. I mean that you need to improve your grip strength so your normal "Firm" grip is the same as an average persons death grip from a pounds of grip force perspective.

The only way to shoot really fast, .10 - .12 splits, while you are using a firm grip AND maintain proper tracking and return of the front sight is to have a very strong grip pressure on the gun. If you choose the other rout of "allow the gun to recoil as much as it wants" then you will forever be waiting for the front sight to return to a steady aligned state, or physically driving the front sight back to an aligned state, which will limit your maximum aimed splits to the .25 - .30 range.

To shoot fast and accurate in this sport you MUST have an above average amount of grip strength. The stronger you get the harder you can grip the gun without feeling like you are gripping the gun hard. If you can grip the crap out of the gun with a normal firm grip then you can shoot from a far more relaxed state of mind.

[Blackstone45]

So strong grip strength doesn't necessarily equate to trying to "hold" the gun down during recoil, as long as it remains neutral?

[JimmyZip]

So strong grip strength doesn't necessarily equate to trying to "hold" the gun down during recoil, as long as it remains neutral?

That is it.

[CHA-LEE]

Its best to think about it like this. The more grip pressure you have will reduce the magnitude and duration of the muzzle flip during recoil. The more grip pressure you have returns the sights to an aligned state sooner, thus allows you to fire the next shot sooner. We can only shoot effectively when the sights are in an aligned state and we can process the given sight picture. Reduce the time it takes to get the sights back to an aligned state by gripping the gun with more pressure. The only way to improve your grip pressure without using a death grip with 100% of your strength is to increase your base level of grip strength. Think of it in pounds of grip force. Lets use an arbitrary number such as 100lbs as an optimal grip pressure to effectively manage the recoil. If you have weak grip strength you may not even be about to produce 100lbs of grip pressure even with a death grip. For these people the gun will always be muzzle flipping and shifting around in their hand excessively causing sight return issues. Lets say that you have an average amount of grip strength and it takes 95% of your strength to produce 100lbs of grip force. Putting that much effort and tension in producing a 100lb grip force for that person will have a huge negative impact to their trigger finger dexterity and overall tension level while shooting. Now think about this from the other perspective. If you have very good grip strength and it only takes 60% of your total grip strength to produce 100lbs of grip force your overall tension level is greatly reduced and your ability to manipulate your trigger finger quickly is also vastly improved. You decide which grip strength category you want to be in. I will choose the very good grip strength category.

[benos]

I agree CHA-LEE, the importance of a very good base gripping strength should not be underestimated.

be

[toothguy]

Its best to think about it like this. The more grip pressure you have will reduce the magnitude and duration of the muzzle flip during recoil. The more grip pressure you have returns the sights to an aligned state sooner, thus allows you to fire the next shot sooner. We can only shoot effectively when the sights are in an aligned state and we can process the given sight picture. Reduce the time it takes to get the sights back to an aligned state by gripping the gun with more pressure. The only way to improve your grip pressure without using a death grip with 100% of your strength is to increase your base level of grip strength. Think of it in pounds of grip force. Lets use an arbitrary number such as 100lbs as an optimal grip pressure to effectively manage the recoil. If you have weak grip strength you may not even be about to produce 100lbs of grip pressure even with a death grip. For these people the gun will always be muzzle flipping and shifting around in their hand excessively causing sight return issues. Lets say that you have an average amount of grip strength and it takes 95% of your strength to produce 100lbs of grip force. Putting that much effort and tension in producing a 100lb grip force for that person will have a huge negative impact to their trigger finger dexterity and overall tension level while shooting. Now think about this from the other perspective. If you have very good grip strength and it only takes 60% of your total grip strength to produce 100lbs of grip force your overall tension level is greatly reduced and your ability to manipulate your trigger finger quickly is also vastly improved. You decide which grip strength category you want to be in. I will choose the very good grip strength category.

I think that's excellent. For myself (revolver) the grip is the foundation. Without a good grip I can't get good trigger control to maintain an accurate sight picture.

Also I want a stronger grip so I don't need to rely on grip lotions ect. They all seem to get sticky or grip to well so it's hard to get a good grip fast.

Edited October 30, 2012 by toothguy

[CHA-LEE]

Its best to think about it like this. The more grip pressure you have will reduce the magnitude and duration of the muzzle flip during recoil. The more grip pressure you have returns the sights to an aligned state sooner, thus allows you to fire the next shot sooner. We can only shoot effectively when the sights are in an aligned state and we can process the given sight picture. Reduce the time it takes to get the sights back to an aligned state by gripping the gun with more pressure. The only way to improve your grip pressure without using a death grip with 100% of your strength is to increase your base level of grip strength. Think of it in pounds of grip force. Lets use an arbitrary number such as 100lbs as an optimal grip pressure to effectively manage the recoil. If you have weak grip strength you may not even be about to produce 100lbs of grip pressure even with a death grip. For these people the gun will always be muzzle flipping and shifting around in their hand excessively causing sight return issues. Lets say that you have an average amount of grip strength and it takes 95% of your strength to produce 100lbs of grip force. Putting that much effort and tension in producing a 100lb grip force for that person will have a huge negative impact to their trigger finger dexterity and overall tension level while shooting. Now think about this from the other perspective. If you have very good grip strength and it only takes 60% of your total grip strength to produce 100lbs of grip force your overall tension level is greatly reduced and your ability to manipulate your trigger finger quickly is also vastly improved. You decide which grip strength category you want to be in. I will choose the very good grip strength category.

I think that's excellent. For myself (revolver) the grip is the foundation. Without a good grip I can't get good trigger control to maintain an accurate sight picture.

Also I want a stronger grip so I don't need to rely on grip lotions ect. They all seem to get sticky or grip to well so it's hard to get a good grip fast.

You are now talking about a different subject, grip traction. A lot of people don't understand that Grip Strength/Pressure and Grip Traction are two completely different things. I will always work towards increasing my Grip Strength/Pressure as that does not have a negative impact on the shooting process, only a positive improvement. The more grip pressure you can produce the more effective you can manage the recoil.

Grip Traction comes into play as a factor of physical friction between your hands and the gun. Hand to gun friction can be increased by adding checkering, skate tape, grip lotions etc. But you can go overboard and create too much friction which will have a negative impact on your ability to grip the gun consistently because there is too much friction to allow your hand to slide into the proper position. As you have described, if you have an excessive amount of grip friction you lose the ability to readjust your grip during an aggressive draw or shift the gun in your hand during a reload. I am a fan of increasing grip friction by the use of checkering and skate tape on the gun as well as small amounts of grip lotion. But these things need to be done in moderation so you can still shift your grip as needed while manipulating the gun aggressively (Drawing, Reloading). A lot of shooters think that instead of increasing their grip strength/pressure they can instead increase the grip friction to improve their recoil management. This is usually a bad plan because your hands will eventually get worn to blisters when you shoot more than 300 - 400 rounds in a single practice session. If you have sufficient grip strength/pressure you should be able to shoot at least 500 rounds in a practice day without damaging your hands due to excessive friction or feeling hand fatigue. If you have blisters after shooting 500 rounds, too much friction (and probably not enough grip strength/pressure). If you have hand fatigue but no blisters after shooting 500 rounds, not enough grip strength/pressure.

[Forgetful]

For me "neutral grip" was a misnomer depending on how you interpret it. I originally thought neutral was much wimpier than I now think of it. If you don't control the gun with some authority then it will push your hand back and leave it there slightly, object at rest and all that.

I don't try to muscle the gun, but also not let the gun control me. Meaning the gun recoil is a separate event that I endure, and try and keep/return my hands to their original position. Biggest thing is just shoot more and the feel of it develops.

All imo from a relative noob

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Edited October 31, 2012 by Forgetful

[toothguy]

Its best to think about it like this. The more grip pressure you have will reduce the magnitude and duration of the muzzle flip during recoil. The more grip pressure you have returns the sights to an aligned state sooner, thus allows you to fire the next shot sooner. We can only shoot effectively when the sights are in an aligned state and we can process the given sight picture. Reduce the time it takes to get the sights back to an aligned state by gripping the gun with more pressure. The only way to improve your grip pressure without using a death grip with 100% of your strength is to increase your base level of grip strength. Think of it in pounds of grip force. Lets use an arbitrary number such as 100lbs as an optimal grip pressure to effectively manage the recoil. If you have weak grip strength you may not even be about to produce 100lbs of grip pressure even with a death grip. For these people the gun will always be muzzle flipping and shifting around in their hand excessively causing sight return issues. Lets say that you have an average amount of grip strength and it takes 95% of your strength to produce 100lbs of grip force. Putting that much effort and tension in producing a 100lb grip force for that person will have a huge negative impact to their trigger finger dexterity and overall tension level while shooting. Now think about this from the other perspective. If you have very good grip strength and it only takes 60% of your total grip strength to produce 100lbs of grip force your overall tension level is greatly reduced and your ability to manipulate your trigger finger quickly is also vastly improved. You decide which grip strength category you want to be in. I will choose the very good grip strength category.

I think that's excellent. For myself (revolver) the grip is the foundation. Without a good grip I can't get good trigger control to maintain an accurate sight picture.

Also I want a stronger grip so I don't need to rely on grip lotions ect. They all seem to get sticky or grip to well so it's hard to get a good grip fast.

You are now talking about a different subject, grip traction. A lot of people don't understand that Grip Strength/Pressure and Grip Traction are two completely different things. I will always work towards increasing my Grip Strength/Pressure as that does not have a negative impact on the shooting process, only a positive improvement. The more grip pressure you can produce the more effective you can manage the recoil.

Grip Traction comes into play as a factor of physical friction between your hands and the gun. Hand to gun friction can be increased by adding checkering, skate tape, grip lotions etc. But you can go overboard and create too much friction which will have a negative impact on your ability to grip the gun consistently because there is too much friction to allow your hand to slide into the proper position. As you have described, if you have an excessive amount of grip friction you lose the ability to readjust your grip during an aggressive draw or shift the gun in your hand during a reload. I am a fan of increasing grip friction by the use of checkering and skate tape on the gun as well as small amounts of grip lotion. But these things need to be done in moderation so you can still shift your grip as needed while manipulating the gun aggressively (Drawing, Reloading). A lot of shooters think that instead of increasing their grip strength/pressure they can instead increase the grip friction to improve their recoil management. This is usually a bad plan because your hands will eventually get worn to blisters when you shoot more than 300 - 400 rounds in a single practice session. If you have sufficient grip strength/pressure you should be able to shoot at least 500 rounds in a practice day without damaging your hands due to excessive friction or feeling hand fatigue. If you have blisters after shooting 500 rounds, too much friction (and probably not enough grip strength/pressure). If you have hand fatigue but no blisters after shooting 500 rounds, not enough grip strength/pressure.

I think grip strength and grip traction are interrelated (directly proportional) given a fixed surface texture. However grip tension is inversely proportional to a steady sight picture. You can achieve the effect of having a stronger grip with grip tape and Progrip ect. The stronger your grip is the less you need to rely on products and can just shoot. I like the grip tape that is worn a little and at this point I just want my hands dry.

Edited October 31, 2012 by toothguy

[toothguy]

For me "neutral grip" was a misnomer depending on how you interpret it. I originally thought neutral was much wimpier than I now think of it. If you don't control the gun with some authority then it will push your hand back and leave it there slightly, object at rest and all that.

I don't try to muscle the gun, but also not let the gun control me. Meaning the gun recoil is a separate event that I endure, and try and keep/return my hands to their original position. Biggest thing is just shoot more and the feel of it develops.

All imo from a relative noob

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

What affect does grip width have on natural point of aim?

It comes down to - you need to learn how to grip every pistol you shoot so that when your hands are extended in front of your face with a dead nuetral grip (in your Index position), the sights are perfectly aligned at the target.

"Dead nuetral" means there must not be any tension to the left, right, up, or down, in your grip.

[Psynapse]

All good stuff here.

My STI edge used to shift in my hand like crazy. I could choke the life out of it but the plastic stock grip would just slide/rotate in my hand. It was even worse on hot, sweaty competition days. I solved my problem by wrapping the entire grip with skate tape.

That aside I'm using the COC grip strength trainers and working the free weights. Simply because I know I'm working too hard to achieve what people that are in shape are doing

Re the recoil springs being too light. I have video of that. But I'm willing to bet it is different for everyone based on gun, strength and grip. Myself, I found a spring that is fast but not so fast that my muzzle dives below level when the slide closes.

[valleythunder]

That aside I'm using the COC grip strength trainers and working the free weights. Simply because I know I'm working too hard to achieve what people that are in shape are doing

My better half and I are new to shooting USPSA, with 3-gun being our long term goal. I am amazed at the number of people who don't look at the fitness side of the shooting equation. We both cycle, weight lift and are now starting crossfit, which I see as being extremely beneficial. Not surprised at the number of military, L.E. and others who are using crossfit.....

Rob

[Jerome]

One thing I struggle with is how to test recoil. Say when you're testing for proper grip strength or different weight recoil springs or systems (Recoil Master, Tungsten, Recoil Reducer, plain jane, etc).

Does anyone have a standard test for recoil? Do you test shooting 6 shots to one target as fast as you can or 1 shot and checking where the gun is afterward. Or test transitions from one target to another. I've thought about timing how long it takes to fire6 rounds to one target with focus on getting the sights back to perfect sight picture between shots at about 12yds. I tried it a few times with mixed results. Shooting 1 shot always leaves my gun pointing high no matter the spring weight. Never get that dip I hear about. On this, I'll have to check and see if the gun is slipping in my hands next range trip.

Another key is getting the proper grip on the draw. For me, I'm more successful pushing down on the gun with my right hand before drawing it out of the holster. I seem to get a more consistant strong grip that way. Still working on this basic stuff that I'd have thought I'd have answers too by now.

[toothguy]

One thing I struggle with is how to test recoil. Say when you're testing for proper grip strength or different weight recoil springs or systems (Recoil Master, Tungsten, Recoil Reducer, plain jane, etc).

Does anyone have a standard test for recoil? Do you test shooting 6 shots to one target as fast as you can or 1 shot and checking where the gun is afterward. Or test transitions from one target to another. I've thought about timing how long it takes to fire6 rounds to one target with focus on getting the sights back to perfect sight picture between shots at about 12yds. I tried it a few times with mixed results. Shooting 1 shot always leaves my gun pointing high no matter the spring weight. Never get that dip I hear about. On this, I'll have to check and see if the gun is slipping in my hands next range trip.

Another key is getting the proper grip on the draw. For me, I'm more successful pushing down on the gun with my right hand before drawing it out of the holster. I seem to get a more consistant strong grip that way. Still working on this basic stuff that I'd have thought I'd have answers too by now.

Look at some of Robert Vogel's videos on youtube there excellent. He has a very strong grip.

[Psynapse]

One thing I struggle with is how to test recoil. Say when you're testing for proper grip strength or different weight recoil springs or systems (Recoil Master, Tungsten, Recoil Reducer, plain jane, etc).

Does anyone have a standard test for recoil? Do you test shooting 6 shots to one target as fast as you can or...

I've only been shooting competitively this year so my 2 cents may only be .75 of a seasoned vet...

I noticed that when I started out I could hardly tell one gun from another in my hands. The difference between one spring and another... forget it. Different ammo? Seriously? Not a chance.

So I was left not knowing what was the problem, not knowing what to change and really not knowing if what I changed really made a difference. Or that I happened to shift my grip during testing making the new recoil spring look like a superstar.

So where am I going with this? I'm starting to be able to feel spring changes. I can't really feel ammo changes that much. I can definitely feel the results of a poor grip. So... I video myself to help me out when I can. And most importantly... change/try only one thing at a time. Ie;

- shoot off a 6 round string with a light grip on the gun.

- shoot off a string with a medium grip

- shoot off a string with a hard grip

- shoot off a string strangling the gun as hard as possible

If you didn't mess with stance, springs, etc at the same time... you will definitely see the difference and come to a quick conclusion what works best for you there.

[toothguy]

One thing I struggle with is how to test recoil. Say when you're testing for proper grip strength or different weight recoil springs or systems (Recoil Master, Tungsten, Recoil Reducer, plain jane, etc).

Does anyone have a standard test for recoil? Do you test shooting 6 shots to one target as fast as you can or...

I've only been shooting competitively this year so my 2 cents may only be .75 of a seasoned vet...

I noticed that when I started out I could hardly tell one gun from another in my hands. The difference between one spring and another... forget it. Different ammo? Seriously? Not a chance.

So I was left not knowing what was the problem, not knowing what to change and really not knowing if what I changed really made a difference. Or that I happened to shift my grip during testing making the new recoil spring look like a superstar.

So where am I going with this? I'm starting to be able to feel spring changes. I can't really feel ammo changes that much. I can definitely feel the results of a poor grip. So... I video myself to help me out when I can. And most importantly... change/try only one thing at a time. Ie;

- shoot off a 6 round string with a light grip on the gun.

- shoot off a string with a medium grip

- shoot off a string with a hard grip

- shoot off a string strangling the gun as hard as possible

If you didn't mess with stance, springs, etc at the same time... you will definitely see the difference and come to a quick conclusion what works best for you there.

When the self conscious is in control your grip will self adjust. Long accurate shots will have a lighter grip, close fast shots a firmer grip. By constant dry fire practice and grip strengthening you can establish a firm default grip that's firm but still has good trigger finger dexterity.

[Sin-ster]

If you don't believe in a distinct separation between grip strength and grip traction, let me handle your pistol for 5-10 minutes without something to dry the oils out of my hands.

Or just rub a stick of butter on the gripping surface. Same result.

[toothguy]

If you don't believe in a distinct separation between grip strength and grip traction, let me handle your pistol for 5-10 minutes without something to dry the oils out of my hands.

Or just rub a stick of butter on the gripping surface. Same result.

I think it's an academic argument. For greater grip traction grip the gun more firmly. If you have sweaty hands try an antiperspirant the night before the match and wipe down your hands with alcohol between stages. If you want to think of grip strength and traction as distinct separate things more power to you. I can only think of one thing at a time.

All this talk about buttering my gun is making me hot.

Edited November 9, 2012 by toothguy