Exemption for sweeping on the draw

[Vince Pinto]

Hi folks,

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.

I was recently asked in a private message "When does the draw end?". As that was the first time I had been asked that question, I referred the matter to the Rules Committee for discussion, and I'm confident we have a good definition, which I privately communicated to the person who asked me (a BE Forum regular), because time was of the essence.

However before we lock this one down, I'd welcome input from other BE Forum members (except Neil, Tim and the originator of the question!!), on what you think is a clear and unambiguous definition, as this will obviously affect when the exemption ends and a Match DQ is applicable.

Thanks in advance.

[Jake Di Vita]

The draw is completed at the end of the draw stroke when the first sighted shot is taken.

[Trey]

Vince,

I like Jake's definition but might add...

The draw begins as soon as the start beep has sounded AND the pistol is touched by the shooter. The draw is completed at the end of the draw stroke when the first sighted shot is taken.

The part I don't understand is... What's the logic in having a loaded firearm pointed at a body part?

[Vince Pinto]

The part I don't understand is... What's the logic in having a loaded firearm pointed at a body part?

Hi Trey, that's a matter for an entirely different discussion. For the time being, let's please just deal with the existing rule "as is" and the question which has been asked.

Many thanks.

[billwright]

I think that the draw is completed when the gun has cleared the holster and reached a level plane ---or the first shot is fired, whichever is first.

There may be instances that require the first shot before the gun reaches a level plane.

Bear in mind the situation of drawing the gun before opening a door and engaging targets or going to a shooting port or window, in these cases the gun has definitley been drawn but there is quite a bit of movement prior to the first shot and I suppose thats where the incidence of sweeping would/could happen.

Bill

[Caspian_45]

Here's a curve ball for the discusion. Lets open a door while drawing. Or operating a prop while drawing. Or getting up from a table.

IMO if you sweep your weak hand/arm while drawing you should be DQed.

I like Jakes defination for a completed draw, but not if you sweep your opposing hand/arm in the process.

Tony

[blackdragon]

After the first shot is fired.

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[MasterLefty]

I would consider that the draw is complete once the muzzle of the pistol is pointing beyond a 1 meter radius from the competitors feet.

Kenny

[Ron Ankeny]

Good thread. I like Kenny's definition.

[mactiger]

I like Kenny's definition, too. The first shot or after is too late, especially in cases where some prop or object must be manipulated prior to making the first shot.

Troy

[dajarrel]

My vote for Kenny's definition.

dj

[Vlad]

Also I'm with Kenny. First shot is meaningless as the shooter may have to run for a few seconds to get to fire the first shot. Angles and planes are not so interesting either for the most part as target presentation can muck that up.

My definition would be that of Kenny plus a "or first shot fired", just to cover the unlikely and dangerous case of a target being within that 1m of the start position.

As for why you would cross yourself, look at where the muzzle is pointing while the gun is holstered and you go thouch various movements like walking, sitting, standing, getting up from prone. In many of this cases the muzzle is crossing you. However the gun is considered safe because it is not in your hand, but holstered. However as soon as you draw the gun you could be DQed for crossing yourself by pointing the gun at your leg, foot, and what not. I think that point of the rule is to avoid DQing people for being shaped different then others or for using anything but an FBI cant production holster, but I'm just guessing.

Vlad

[diehli]

I was going to write exactly what Kenny did, except I wouldn't have used that metric crap.

[lynn jones]

the draw is complete when the muzzle has left the holster, or the trigger guard is released from the holster. the rest is movement to the target. simple.

lynn

Edited August 24, 2004 by lynn jones

[Jim Norman]

Using Lynn's defination, I would wager that the majority of competitors would be DQ'd on the first draw of the day. I sort of like Kenny's when the gun is pointed more than one meter or yard fom the feet and I'd opt to include Vlad's suggestion of or until the first shot is fired. There are too many times when the gun does not reach a level plane before the shots is broken. Low targets are not uncommon.

Jim

[sfinney]

I agree with Kenny rather than Lynn for the following reasons....

the exeption as I understand it is in place to allow your muzzle to come out of the holster and move away from your body - some people are sweeping their leg or hip the instant the muzzle clears the holster due to holster position, body physique..... however, IMHO, sweeping your hand during the draw should not be considered the same thing for the exemption purpose....

Having the 1 meter rule would give you the chance to clear your lower body, but still hold the competitor to a safe presentation of the muzzle toward the target (no sweeping of hands etc as muzzle starts upward passing the 1 meter mark.... )

Having the exemption expire the instant the trigger guard clears the holster still doesn't give the shooter the chance to move the muzzle away from their own body before it would normally be a "sweep" for that fraction of a second.

Just my thoughts.

[AikiDale]

I'm with Lynn here. The draw is completed when it leaves the holster.

But more importantly, IMHO, if a shooter removed his weapon from his holster and shot himself in the leg would he merit a DQ for sweeping? AD? Dumb in a public place?

Allow me to quote from the USPSA 14 Edition Rule Book, page 6:

"THE FOUR LAWS OF GUN CONTROL

If you learn nothing else from practical shooting, learn the four laws that are

the foundation of all safe gun handling. ...

....

SECOND LAW... NEVER POINT THE GUN AT SOMETHING YOU ARE

NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY!"

A better version is Col Cooper's; Never allow the muzzle to cover something you are not willing to destroy.

That includes body parts, even during the draw I should think.

[Flexmoney]

I like Kenny's version too. Kinda sepertes the clearing the holster from the presentation.

I wonder if the distance shouldn't be exactly the same as the DQ distance for a discharge for UGH?

[diehli]

A better version is Col Cooper's; Never allow the muzzle to cover something you are not willing to destroy.

Apparently Coop doesn't care for his left arm all that much. Or is this one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things?

[AikiDale]

A better version is Col Cooper's; Never allow the muzzle to cover something you are not willing to destroy.

Apparently Coop doesn't care for his left arm all that much. Or is this one of those "do as I say, not as I do" things?

Definately a "do as I say" thing. I remember seeing a video of Coop teaching the basics and emphasizing not to have one's finger on the trigger until the sights were on the target. A friend and I quit counting the number of times he had his finger on the trigger at 73.......

However, the concept is a valid one, IMNSHO.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Thank you all for your positive input and contributions, but I'm a bit surprised that nobody suggested the following answer: "As soon as the competitor's finger enters the trigger guard". Here's the thinking:

I believe we're unanimous that sweeping anytime during a COF is a bad thing and, as such, the action normally incurs a Match DQ. Having said that, in the real world where we all live, we acknowledge that many holsters make it almost impossible not to sweep yourself "while drawing from a holster or reholstering" so, even though we're not happy about this situation, we reluctantly provide a limited exemption. However now that the (very good) question "When does the draw end?" has been asked, we're obliged to provide a clear and unambiguous definition, which can easily be determined by competitors and ROs alike.

1. The "1 metre" suggestion has merit, but it's more difficult to judge, especially given the speed at which most competitors move from "whoa" to "go".

2. The "as soon as the gun leaves the holster" suggestion is almost impossible to apply equitably, especially when you consider holsters such as the "Limcat".

3. I think the "after the first shot" suggestion is way too late because, by then, any damage has been done.

4. Some of you mentioned the "4 Rules Of Gun Safety" but, under the special circumstances we're discussing, which of the "4 Rules" is the only rule we haven't yet addressed?:

• Always assume the gun is loaded; (we know this is true for certain)
  

• Do not point a gun at anything you do not want to shoot; (this is the actual exemption)
  

• Be sure of your target and what's behind and beyond it. (hopefully this has already been addressed by range officials).
  

• Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target; (we have a winner!!)
  

So guys, what do you think?

[Phil Dunlop]

I'm with you Vince, seated draws would see most people DQ'd under Lynns method and the 1 meter/yard rule would be tougher to call consistantly

P.D.

[Skywalker]

Am I too late?

I'd rather say that the draw ends as soon as the competitor has gun at eye level and is aiming at a target.

I.e. the draw ends where the competitor is allowed to (legally) put finger in trigger guard.

[diehli]

Dale,

Heh... I agree that it's a good idea, but I don't think its the right one for our sport or for real life (I'd rather not put a hole in the side of my nightstand... ).

Safety is about alleviating or minimizing the consequences of shjt happening whether we're talking about an "ID-ten-T" error or an honest-to-god equipment malf. Fact is, we cover ourselves in some start positions and, subsequently, sweep ourselves... we need to minimize the consequences in those instances (and most do out of fear of creating another bodily orifice). I don't think we need to safety-nanny our sport to death, but we should address things when there are true problems.

In this instance, 3 feet (1 yard, 1 meter, whatever) looks to be a good distance. The gun just barely has to clear the holster and be on the way to the firing position and you've got the muzzle pointing at 3 feet.

[diehli]

Hrm... finger in trigger guard sounds good, but is it any easier to police than 3 feet?