justaute Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Agreed. "...with arms hanging naturally by the sides" - There is an illustration in the rule book (E3). And, to be fair, there should be a bit of "slack" or gray area for this in that people have different built or physiques. Nonetheless, the deviation should be relatively small and "reasonable" The deviation in the photos/videos of this thread and those of many shooters I've seen are neither "small" nor "reasonable". "Hands above shoulders" (surrender position in classifiers usually state "wrists above shoulders") - There is very little, if any, gray area for this. Hands/wrists are either are above shoulders or are not above shoulders. By saying "very little" I meant at times shooters wrists/hands are close enough above -- I would give them the benefit of doubt; I'm only giving this a tiny room of gray because of RO's vantage point and potentially what people are wearing. 100% precision is not necessary here, but 99% should be required. -- my 2 cents. Come guys... who in God's name would argue that any of these people's arms are "relaxed at sides"? Do they (not just the people in these pics) stand like this when casually talking with people? I have some local friends that do this... it makes me nutty. I might start doing it as well as I think it IS a significant advantage IMO.... Hands above shoulders.. how does one "game" that??? Edited October 15, 2012 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I think part of the issue is that the phrases "hands relaxed at sides" and "hands above shoulders" have a lot of slack in them and we, as shooters and stage designers, have let that slack be played in the name of "freestyle". One way to stop this would be better, more specific starting positions in the stage descriptions. 8.2.2 "Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. Doesn't seem to be much slack there for relaxed at sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hands relaxed at sides... sides... you have left side, right side, front side, back side... see my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just to amplify about the "sides" -- when arms hanging naturally at sides, they are not usually completely straight and are not right next to the legs. Thus, I use the "gray area" language in my previous posting. Again, the photos/videos in this thread are not anywhere close to being naturally at sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) If you and I are standing ANY place other than a gun range without competition gear on us, and I asked you to stand with your arms hanging naturally at your sides, this picture is EXACTLY how you would stand. If it isn’t, well then HEY…look at that, there is a picture in the rule book that shows you what you are supposed to look like. FWIW, 8.2.2 points to this picture to describe "arms hanging naturally at sides" So why are these RO’s letting people stand with their hands any which way they want? And at Nationals no less???? Edited October 15, 2012 by CZinSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just to amplify about the "sides" -- when arms hanging naturally at sides, they are not usually completely straight and are not right next to the legs. Thus, I use the "gray area" language in my previous posting. Again, the photos/videos in this thread are not anywhere close to being naturally at sides. What also cracks me up is people who bend the fingers on the right hand to prepare for the draw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Well, not EXACTLY. When I am 100% relaxed while standing, the locations of my hands are near the front-left/right of my thighs -- about 45 degrees. Of course, after years of weight-lifting, my lats do affect my posture a bit. Agree with you on everything else. If you and I are standing ANY place other than a gun range without competition gear on us, and I asked you to stand with your arms hanging naturally at your sides, this picture is EXACTLY how you would stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 IPSC Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 When it comes right down to it the RO is to blame. I will not start a shooter unil they are in the proper position. If the shooter dosen't hear the buzzer within 2-3 seconds they usually turn around and look at you, that is when I tell them they are not in the proper start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Jax - IMO - "Are You Ready" should never even be asked until the shooter is in the right position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) When it comes right down to it the RO is to blame. I will not start a shooter unil they are in the proper position. "Are You Ready" should never even be asked until the shooter is in the right position. This is where the issue lies, the RO. -rvb Edited October 15, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Jax - IMO - "Are You Ready" should never even be asked until the shooter is in the right position. Yep. This IMHO, is mostly on the ROs. Foot postion, hand position, etc. They don't get an "Are you Ready" until they are in the proper stance. And, after "Are you Ready" but before the buzzer, creeping has also been ignored by some ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 There was a book years ago called "The Jordan Rules" about Michael Jordan and the way refs would call fouls/other things in a different way to favor Jordan or to give him a little more lee-way on infractions. Are the ROs favoring the GMs/Big Names or are they doing it for everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I think part of the issue is that the phrases "hands relaxed at sides" and "hands above shoulders" have a lot of slack in them and we, as shooters and stage designers, have let that slack be played in the name of "freestyle". One way to stop this would be better, more specific starting positions in the stage descriptions. 8.2.2 "Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. Doesn't seem to be much slack there for relaxed at sides. The full rule is: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. The problem here is that most stage descriptions specify something other than "in box A" or "in FFZ." The moment you write something like "toes on marks" or "standing in Box A" you have specified a start position different than what is stated in 8.2.2, and those requirements go out the window..... Want them to "stand in Box A" or "with toes touching marks", or "with back against a wall" and do something specific with their hands, such as "hanging naturally at sides?" Better write that in as well..... Otherwise the only requirement is that they be upright in Box A, have their toes touching marks or back against the wall.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 When it comes right down to it the RO is to blame. I will not start a shooter unil they are in the proper position. If the shooter dosen't hear the buzzer within 2-3 seconds they usually turn around and look at you, that is when I tell them they are not in the proper start position. This! Of course assuming there is sufficient specificity in the WSB.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 IPSC Monkey Got this stance that's more than real Stand IPSC Monkey - here's how you feel Put your left leg down - your right hand up Tilt your head back - let's go shoot the Cup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Come guys... who in God's name would argue that any of these people's arms are "relaxed at sides"? Do they (not just the people in these pics) stand like this when casually talking with people? I have some local friends that do this... it makes me nutty. I might start doing it as well as I think it IS a significant advantage IMO.... Hands above shoulders.. how does one "game" that??? What I typically see is people holding their hands out in front of their shoulders, usually with their palms even with their shoulders height-wise. That is to say, not even remotely close to "wrists above respective shoulders". But their hands are up, so most RO's just let it slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) I think part of the issue is that the phrases "hands relaxed at sides" and "hands above shoulders" have a lot of slack in them and we, as shooters and stage designers, have let that slack be played in the name of "freestyle". One way to stop this would be better, more specific starting positions in the stage descriptions. 8.2.2 "Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. Doesn't seem to be much slack there for relaxed at sides. The full rule is: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. "Arms hanging naturally by sides" is illustrated in Appendix E3. The problem here is that most stage descriptions specify something other than "in box A" or "in FFZ." The moment you write something like "toes on marks" or "standing in Box A" you have specified a start position different than what is stated in 8.2.2, and those requirements go out the window..... Want them to "stand in Box A" or "with toes touching marks", or "with back against a wall" and do something specific with their hands, such as "hanging naturally at sides?" Better write that in as well..... Otherwise the only requirement is that they be upright in Box A, have their toes touching marks or back against the wall.... @Nik Habicht hit the nail on the head with this one. Now my evil question: Would be undue harassment and against the RO Creed to deliberately allow the competitor to shoot the stage, and afterwards require them to reshoot because they were not in the appropriate start position? Considering most people's feelings/belief that reshoots in general turnout badly, would that be sufficient "punishment" for a shooter? Personally, I think that if the WSB is not well crafted to specify arm and hand positions, then a competitor is free to game the arm position all they want, except for classifiers which has the "intent" clause in the introduction of the book. Edited October 16, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Now my evil question: Would be undue harassment and against the RO Creed to deliberately allow the competitor to shoot the stage, and afterwards require them to reshoot because they were not in the appropriate start position? Considering most people's feelings/belief that reshoots in general turnout badly, would that be sufficient "punishment" for a shooter? I'm not crazy about that plan -- that would be an example of bad officiating, since the RO isn't supposed to issue the "Are You Ready" command to the competitor until the proper start position has been assumed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 For a person with a petite build, large magazines and forward mag pouches would make it rather difficult for the arms to be hanging naturally by sides as indicated in Appendix E3, (note that the image only has a single magazine pouch well forward of the arms). In fact the arms would have to be wedged into gaps between the mag pouches to stand that way... Not always possible if the magazines are situated next to each other. The arms cannot 'hang naturally' if a person has shorter arms and large magazines, the arms will stick out to the side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 For a person with a petite build, large magazines and forward mag pouches would make it rather difficult for the arms to be hanging naturally by sides as indicated in Appendix E3, (note that the image only has a single magazine pouch well forward of the arms). In fact the arms would have to be wedged into gaps between the mag pouches to stand that way... Not always possible if the magazines are situated next to each other.The arms cannot 'hang naturally' if a person has shorter arms and large magazines, the arms will stick out to the side... I know what you mean. The Magwell of my Edge is right where my arm hangs, so I just drape my arms over the magwell and mags and let them hang, not move my arms in front or behind. I actually find doing this gives me a better feel of getting a grip on the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 For a person with a petite build, large magazines and forward mag pouches would make it rather difficult for the arms to be hanging naturally by sides as indicated in Appendix E3, (note that the image only has a single magazine pouch well forward of the arms). In fact the arms would have to be wedged into gaps between the mag pouches to stand that way... Not always possible if the magazines are situated next to each other. The arms cannot 'hang naturally' if a person has shorter arms and large magazines, the arms will stick out to the side... True...but come on, let's use some common sense folks. There are obvious differences between a competitor that hangs their arms naturally at the sides and they tend to stick out because of the magazines, and a competitor that has their arms hanging further away and wrists turned, and cocked, etc. Common sense: It's not in the rulebook, but we are allowed to use it. ( and no...because there is no rule specifically allowing it, doesn't mean that we can't use it!! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 That's why I like hands on X's starts (or toes/heels on X starts). If RO's are slacking the stage designers are going to have to write them like it's USPSA's version of twister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Paul - I understand completely what you are saying HOWEVER Look at the two photos posted on page 1 - In the photo of Jessie - her arm is WAY out in front of her body (and when you watch the video close the center of her body also) - same with Tori - her arm is way out in front past her side. They are not even at the "AT SIDES" part of the requirement. I see this all the time - just something for RO's to be aware of. Also I do like the idea of requiring start positions with palms on X's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess that I don't really see what advantage these gals are getting by starting in that possition... That is all that matters to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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