Nik Habicht Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I thought there was a rule that if you used a chrono, all competitors had to be tested. There is.... So random testing, or testing the top three won't work.... You will have to help me out Sir. All I can find is: 5.8.1.5 Match Officials reserve the right to conduct chronograph or other tests on all and any ammunition, at any time, and a reason need not be given. Appendix C2: 43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book. Couldn't those not selected just be marked DNF on that stage? Thanks in advance. Appendix C2, 43 makes it clear that chrono is an official stage -- as such all competitors completing the match must attempt it. Earlier in Appendix C2 we have this: 28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary. and 42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results. There's no provision for "spot chrono." You either run it as a stage that everyone passes through, or you don't run it. If your club has enough bays, set it up in a separate bay right next to the classifier, start the rotation off by sending the last two shooters up for the classifier over to chrono, and then send shooters over as they complete the classifier. A squad should be able to rotate through about as quickly as a bigger stage rotates -- but you will need 2 sharp folks working chrono, and a way to deliver labeled ammo samples, for bullet pulling, that are organized by squad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Apparently our club "caught" a guy this past weekend. Shooting 9mm and posted a 118 and a 120. I don't reload, can you even get an advantage being under PF by that little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick88 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Cheaters are going to cheat, we can make it difficult but if their persistent they will succeed. Years ago I over heard a shooter talking to his buddy about his ammo saying that the blue boxes were for the match the green box is in case they have a crono... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Apparently our club "caught" a guy this past weekend. Shooting 9mm and posted a 118 and a 120. I don't reload, can you even get an advantage being under PF by that little? In my experience, yes. I've shot someone's Minor load next to their Steel Load and could easily tell the difference-- the sights seemed to move straight back and straight forward, with almost no muzzle flip with the lighter charge. The PF's were 130 and 120, respectively-- and the difference was dramatic enough for me to think that even 5 PF would make a difference, at least in that particular gun and load combination. Especially if you went with a spring set up specifically designed for the softer load... That said... I'm pretty in tune with how the gun feels during recoil, and notice differences (i.e. TightGroup vs N320 using the same bullet and making the same velocity) that many do not. So I suppose it's partly shooter dependent, as well as relative to the gun and load itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Is there a differace.YES. Its like a slap vs a punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It's boggling for me to believe, but lots of handloaders don't have a chrono. I've been shooting USPSA for a little over a year now, and have been reloading just as long. I don't have a chrono, because I simply can't afford it. They cost $100. How can you NOT afford a chrono if you can afford to travel to ANY match that uses one? All the same, I would like to see chrono's at our local matches just as a service to competitors, so they know where they are on someone else's chrono long before they get to a major. We had one for a practice match last spring. It took less time than shooting a classifier stage. zippety-skip. This. It's much better than having Ken Skeeters ask you, "Were you TRYING to make major?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert King Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 If someone wants to question my powerfactor, they are welcome to shoot one of my 9mm major loads through a factory glock and see if I'm making major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Apparently our club "caught" a guy this past weekend. Shooting 9mm and posted a 118 and a 120. I don't reload, can you even get an advantage being under PF by that little? Huh? Something is wrong with your chrono stage procedure. At the end of the chrono stage, the shooter should only end up with a single average of his best 3 bullets after 3, 6, or 7 bullets were fired. How can he end up with 2 averages of 118 and 120 PF? Are you talking about individual shots having a PF of 118 and 120? If so, it's okay to have individual shots be below the limit as long as the final average he has at the end meets the minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It took less time than shooting a classifier stage. zippety-skip. That is assuming that you have a full time (or part time) chrono staff that is collecting bullets, pulling the apart, and weighing them before the squad gets to chrono stage. If bullets are collected, and taken apart, and weighed only when the squad shows up, I think that shooting a classifier will be faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Apparently our club "caught" a guy this past weekend. Shooting 9mm and posted a 118 and a 120. I don't reload, can you even get an advantage being under PF by that little? Huh? Something is wrong with your chrono stage procedure. At the end of the chrono stage, the shooter should only end up with a single average of his best 3 bullets after 3, 6, or 7 bullets were fired. How can he end up with 2 averages of 118 and 120 PF? Are you talking about individual shots having a PF of 118 and 120? If so, it's okay to have individual shots be below the limit as long as the final average he has at the end meets the minimum. Great point. The USPSA chrono procedures are pretty lenient IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It took less time than shooting a classifier stage. zippety-skip. That is assuming that you have a full time (or part time) chrono staff that is collecting bullets, pulling the apart, and weighing them before the squad gets to chrono stage. If bullets are collected, and taken apart, and weighed only when the squad shows up, I think that shooting a classifier will be faster. we didn't bother with pulling bullets apart. it was intended more as informational rather than enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Oh trust me. There is all kinds of stuff wrong with our procedure. Anyway, those were 2 of his 3 rounds. I didn't catch the 3rd. I was just curious as to if there was a significant difference from 125 to 118. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It took less time than shooting a classifier stage. zippety-skip. That is assuming that you have a full time (or part time) chrono staff that is collecting bullets, pulling the apart, and weighing them before the squad gets to chrono stage. If bullets are collected, and taken apart, and weighed only when the squad shows up, I think that shooting a classifier will be faster. I've been to several Level 2 matches where they don't pull bullets. I'm thinking this would work in the club match. Of course, you could always have someone declaring a heavier bullet weight than they are actually shooting but that is a dyed in the wool cheater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 There is really nothing you can do about I don't think. Like Shred said there are to many ways to cheat the chrono if they want to. Short of Randomly getting mags off somebody right after they shot a stage you just can't be 100% sure they didn't through in some gold dots, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Oh trust me. There is all kinds of stuff wrong with our procedure. Anyway, those were 2 of his 3 rounds. I didn't catch the 3rd. I was just curious as to if there was a significant difference from 125 to 118. Yup, and if the average of the first 3 was below the limit, he should have had the opportunity to have another 3 fired, and take the average of the best 3 of the 6. And failing that, have the option for one more bullet to be fired to get the average of the best 3 of the 7. On my G-34, I didn't feel or see a difference between 115 and 132 PF. On my CZ-75, I could feel the difference, but my sights seemed to be back in place at about the same amount of time. (I was shooting 115 PF for a plates league, and 132 PF for USPSA for a little while. I eventually just settled on just one load so that I didn't have to keep track of which batch was which.) Edited October 3, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Appendix C2, 43 makes it clear that chrono is an official stage - I agree with that, Nik. - as such all competitors completing the match must attempt it. Not so sure about that. I think it requires drawing a conclusion to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyreb Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I was shooting a match just north of Detroit several yeras ago. I was on the last bit of discontinued Winchester Super Light and looking for a new powder for my .40. One gentleman on my squad was shooting a similar Para with very little recoil. I commented it looked like he had a good, soft load and asked what powder he was using. The guy flew all over me for accusing him of "cheating". Thinking back on it now, the way he went off I'd bet he was shooting minor and claiming major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) I was shooting a match just north of Detroit several yeras ago. But was he holding the weapon sideways? :-) Edited October 4, 2012 by BillChunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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