How to ensure proper respect for targets?

[jetdriver71]

When the timer goes off, you get to be in control of one idea.

Whatever you decide you really want is what WILL happen.

You choose to call every shot and that will happen to best of your current ability.

You choose speed and and you will pull the trigger very fast and run as quick as you can.

One will be very exhilarating.

One will feel slow and might even be boring.

Choose wisely.

I chose the slow with my open gun once at a local match and called every shot and had an ahahh! Moment I won the stage.

[toothguy]

I've been shooting for many years now and in general I've progressed pretty well. However very recently I've been negligent in follow thru and/or respect for easy wide open targets. Example- I've recently dropped several Mikes on my last few USPSA matches.... on wide open easy targets.. in some cases with targets at very close distances. It's embarrassing to have these issues at this stage of my game. Clearly I can shoot difficult shots, that I know. Many of my recent classifiers are in the mid 70s as well. In my last match I had two good stage wins. The other 4 stages killed me because of Mikes... All wide open <10 yard shots.. while I had mostly As on 25 yard drop turners/other targets.

I am simply letting my mind and eyes get way a head of my actually shooting... I'm not following thru. I know I'm not seeing my sights in this case. This is not a bad flinch or anything like that... I'm simply disrespecting easy targets... and it's usually the close wide open targets. I'm trying to focus on hits and not speed but I honestly know when the buzzer goes off I want to go fast.... fast is what is fun for me. But not at the expense of misses!

I'm at a loss at how to solve this problem. I don't think dry fire or live fire practice will help this... at least it hasn't so far. Maybe a shrink? I'm really, really going to put an emphasis on getting as many As on my next match as I can and try to ignore my times/results. If anyone can help me with this I'd be greatly appreciative. I don't want this to continue or develop into a longer term issue. Thanks.

If I may suggest, give PPC a try in combination with whatever pistol shooting sport you choose. The time limits are generous so its all about the pure fundamentals. PPC shooting will refresh and reactivate that skill set that you have learned but which gets degraded in speed games.

[Nimitz]

I believe that while you can certainly develop marksmanskill skills with repititive drills you really don't do a training drill to learn to go fast, that is something that happens naturally as you develop the underlying skill. The brain function that we use to be able to execute a skill over and over again, eventually "without thinking about it " is called 'Mylination'. In simple terms, every time we execute a skill: shuffle a deck of cards or draw our gun from its holster our brain lays down emzymes between our nerve synapsis. These enzymens help the brain's electrical signals move faster from one nerve cell to another. The more often we repeat a task the more of this enzyme is put down. The more enzymes between nerve cells the faster we do a task. So simply repeating a task over and over again you will naturally get faster at it without consciously trying. Are there physcial technique things you can do to help you get faster, sure, but by in large repetition will build speed. The trick of course is to do the right technique or you'll end up doing the wrong thing fast.

There was a study done a long time ago by I think a group of sports physicans connected to olympic training where they found that if you execute a task repeatedly for as little as 6 months incorrectly it can take up to 2 years to lay down new pathways to 'override' and perform correctly at the same speed ... sobering motivation to learn the proper technique right the first time. This is why I video all my training sessions so that I can correcta mistakes immediately. I still make lots of errors, but usually not the same thing over and over again.

[toothguy]

I believe that while you can certainly develop marksmanskill skills with repititive drills you really don't do a training drill to learn to go fast, that is something that happens naturally as you develop the underlying skill. The brain function that we use to be able to execute a skill over and over again, eventually "without thinking about it " is called 'Mylination'. In simple terms, every time we execute a skill: shuffle a deck of cards or draw our gun from its holster our brain lays down emzymes between our nerve synapsis. These enzymens help the brain's electrical signals move faster from one nerve cell to another. The more often we repeat a task the more of this enzyme is put down. The more enzymes between nerve cells the faster we do a task. So simply repeating a task over and over again you will naturally get faster at it without consciously trying. Are there physcial technique things you can do to help you get faster, sure, but by in large repetition will build speed. The trick of course is to do the right technique or you'll end up doing the wrong thing fast.

There was a study done a long time ago by I think a group of sports physicans connected to olympic training where they found that if you execute a task repeatedly for as little as 6 months incorrectly it can take up to 2 years to lay down new pathways to 'override' and perform correctly at the same speed ... sobering motivation to learn the proper technique right the first time. This is why I video all my training sessions so that I can correcta mistakes immediately. I still make lots of errors, but usually not the same thing over and over again.

Excellent post.

[Nimitz]

what is PPC?

[steel1212]

I'm trying to focus on hits and not speed but I honestly know when the buzzer goes off I want to go fast.... fast is what is fun for me. But not at the expense of misses!

You have made your choice. If you want different results, choose again.

It has always been really easy for me to take certain targets for granted. They are almost like shooting ducks in a barrel.

I had to rename them in my mind. I call them "Free Alphas". And, when I plan my stage I make a point to visualize the sights on my Free Alphas.

Nothing is free the a zone is the a zone align your front sight and press. If you wanna go fast you have to leant how to align the sights where they need to be faster.

[toothguy]

what is PPC?

Police Pistol Combat. It has been around a long time and was originally developed for police officer training. Civilians can now participate under the Action Pistol umbrella. Participants shoot from 7,15,25 and 50 yards in prone, standing, kneeling, sitting and from barricade possitions. A good PPC shooter is fundamentally a good shooter like John Pride, Phillip Hemphill and Robert Vadasz. Coincidentally they have also been very good Bianchi shooters. There is lots of info on the NRA web site.

[Nimitz]

Thx!

[pjb45]

Mike Seeklander refers to this as a Training Scar.

You subconscious mind is running your stage plan. You have trained yourself to achieve the miss.

There are several dry fire and live fire drills you can do to remedy this problem.

Seeklander talks about the firing cycle needs to be completed for each shot. Your practice sessions should re-enforce this cycle.

[Nimitz]

Exactly ! Are you following his program? I'm currently 1week into phase III. Should be finished about the time he comes to our club to teach his 2 classes again ...

[benos]

When I saw this thread's title, again, I thought - the problem begins with judging any target as easy or hard. The solution: Stop doing that. Consider all targets equal, therefore - shoot them all in the middle.

[toothguy]

I've been shooting for many years now and in general I've progressed pretty well. However very recently I've been negligent in follow thru and/or respect for easy wide open targets. Example- I've recently dropped several Mikes on my last few USPSA matches.... on wide open easy targets.. in some cases with targets at very close distances. It's embarrassing to have these issues at this stage of my game. Clearly I can shoot difficult shots, that I know. Many of my recent classifiers are in the mid 70s as well. In my last match I had two good stage wins. The other 4 stages killed me because of Mikes... All wide open <10 yard shots.. while I had mostly As on 25 yard drop turners/other targets.

I am simply letting my mind and eyes get way a head of my actually shooting... I'm not following thru. I know I'm not seeing my sights in this case. This is not a bad flinch or anything like that... I'm simply disrespecting easy targets... and it's usually the close wide open targets. I'm trying to focus on hits and not speed but I honestly know when the buzzer goes off I want to go fast.... fast is what is fun for me. But not at the expense of misses!

I'm at a loss at how to solve this problem. I don't think dry fire or live fire practice will help this... at least it hasn't so far. Maybe a shrink? I'm really, really going to put an emphasis on getting as many As on my next match as I can and try to ignore my times/results. If anyone can help me with this I'd be greatly appreciative. I don't want this to continue or develop into a longer term issue. Thanks.

I found "Mastering the Mental Game" by Saul Kirsch very interesting. He's a good shooter and speaker. The video is shot during or after a match. At one point he talks about a stage they had all shot with a starting 25 yard small popper. Instead of letting your mind default to "don't miss the popper" put in your mind "hit it in the center" the subconscious will do what the conscious mind tells it to. Good video goes well with Lanny Bassham's work.

[lugnut]

When I saw this thread's title, again, I thought - the problem begins with judging any target as easy or hard. The solution: Stop doing that. Consider all targets equal, therefore - shoot them all in the middle.

I like this. I think judging some easy targets caused me to miss the easy ones and most times get great points on the tougher ones.

[Steve Anderson]

No easy targets, no hard targets.

Just targets.

When they all get equal respect, there's no longer anything to worry about.

Good stuff!

[partyboy424]

I believe that while you can certainly develop marksmanskill skills with repititive drills you really don't do a training drill to learn to go fast, that is something that happens naturally as you develop the underlying skill. The brain function that we use to be able to execute a skill over and over again, eventually "without thinking about it " is called 'Mylination'. In simple terms, every time we execute a skill: shuffle a deck of cards or draw our gun from its holster our brain lays down emzymes between our nerve synapsis. These enzymens help the brain's electrical signals move faster from one nerve cell to another. The more often we repeat a task the more of this enzyme is put down. The more enzymes between nerve cells the faster we do a task. So simply repeating a task over and over again you will naturally get faster at it without consciously trying. Are there physcial technique things you can do to help you get faster, sure, but by in large repetition will build speed. The trick of course is to do the right technique or you'll end up doing the wrong thing fast.

There was a study done a long time ago by I think a group of sports physicans connected to olympic training where they found that if you execute a task repeatedly for as little as 6 months incorrectly it can take up to 2 years to lay down new pathways to 'override' and perform correctly at the same speed ... sobering motivation to learn the proper technique right the first time. This is why I video all my training sessions so that I can correcta mistakes immediately. I still make lots of errors, but usually not the same thing over and over again.

I learned this the "ah ha!" way a couple of years ago. When I was in the academy to be a Corrections Officer, we had 3 days of firearms training and on the 4th day qualifying and some fun and games. Day 1 was a 38 revolver, Day 2 was a Sig pistol (I wasn't into shooting back then, no idea what models or calibers) and Day 3 was AR15.

For the first 2 days, it was literally 8 straight hours of grabbing the gun high on the backstrap, releasing the tension strap, pulling just out of the holster, then getting your hand across your stomach so that the gun comes together right above your naval to allow you to shoot someone who was charging toward you if needed, then punching the gun out and on target. SLOWLY, 8 straight hours, taking 5-10 seconds to do a draw, perfectly. Everytime. And you did it perfectly because those guys were big and very angry.

On the 4th day when we went to qualify, the very first shot was "when you hear this buzzer, draw and shoot the center mass of the target" We had done this very slowly on days 1 and 2, drawing, getting on target, waiting a second and then firing. This they wanted at fullspeed. When that buzzer went off, to this day it is the best draw of my life. No thinking, didnt' have to look down to watch my grip or think "time to get my sights in line" Just looked at the target and let my body do its thing. Buzzer went off and the bullet was in the bullseye. Only 2, 8 hour days of repetition and I no longer had to think, it was like breathing. Buzzer goes off, body just did what it had been trained to do. I wish I hadn't waited 5 years to pick up a gun again, I dont have 16 hours a week to dryfire anymore... but the ability is there, I've seen it!

[Nimitz]

The good news is I don't think you need 16 hrs/wk. my dry fire regiment is 1/2hr 3-5 days a week and others have noticed major improvements in my techniques after only a few months ... The key I think is the frequency of practice more than the time ... This is why my live fire sessions are only 1 hr long .... 3x a week ... Every week ... I simply stop learning if I go much longer than that

[MC1]

I picked this thread to read because my last match performance was well below my standards. One particular stage had 4 shooting positions. The first had 4 targets with 3 no shoots. It required very accurate shots. I elected to take head shots on 3 targets and the 4 in the normal "A" zone. The rest of the stage was easy shots. My mindset in the walk through killed me. My stage plan was VERY flawed. Shoot accurate on the 1st stage and fast on the rest. I executed my plan to perfection. 1st part was accurate and actually pretty quick, I saw my sights well. Then as my plan dictated, I shot fast and didn't hit a darned thing.

How many times will I fall into the same trap? Very irritated with my mental toughness.

[CHA-LEE]

When I saw this thread's title, again, I thought - the problem begins with judging any target as easy or hard. The solution: Stop doing that. Consider all targets equal, therefore - shoot them all in the middle.

Now that I think about your comment in relation to how my skills progressed this was a HUGE hurtle to overcome!!! I clearly remember when I use to look at stages and assess the shot difficulty and then apply an artificial impression or worry about the hard shots, or not worrying about the easy shot enough. As my shooting and shot calling skills got better I slowly stopped assessing shot difficulty values on each target and instead just took whatever time was needed to make the required shot.

I think its easy for shooters to over respect difficult shots, wasting time by over aiming. It is also easy for shooters to under respect easy shots, by under aiming and simply slinging lead in the direction of the target. From what I have seen, most of these shooters who congenitally Over/Under respect the shots have significant issues with effectively calling their shots. Once a shooter can effectively call their shots they usually stop assessing the shot difficulty and simply let the sight picture drive the shooting speed and sight refinement to break a valid shot.

[MC1]

Very profound Cha-Lee. I never considered the logic which is sound. If you don't know it's broke, you can't fix it! Another nugget to take away and make use of.

[Steve Anderson]

"I chose the slow with my open gun once at a local match and called every shot and had an ahahh! Moment I won the stage."

I understand what the poster is trying to say, but the idea that choosing to call your shots is somehow choosing to go slow really pisses me off, because it keeps people from doing it.

Along the lines of "slow down and get your hits." Makes me Hulk out a little.

What if it could be understood that calling your shots unlocks all the speed that you currently possess?

I'll keep trying...

[grapemeister]

I was just bouncing a stress ball off the wall and catching it with one hand. I was missing every once in a while, especially when throwing the ball harder and increasing the speed of the ball as it was coming back to me. I was missing the ball or letting it bounce off my hand. I asked myelf why I was missing, and then it occured to me that I was not focusing on the ball as it approached and being grabbed by my fingers. It's a bouncy ball so you can't really let it hit the palm or it will bounce off. A hard focus on the ball as it was coming off the wall all the way to my fingers resulted in a catch just about every time. Focus, and patience. That's the key. I'm trying to quit smoking, by the way. That's the reason for the stress ball. Now, back to work.

Edited December 29, 2012 by grapemiester

[Xcaliber]

Interesting topic...

Long ago, when I was much younger, meaner, and tougher, my instructor told me that the problem with westerners is that we carry around too many words in our heads. Our minds are never quiet and we are forever trying to analyze, quantify, judge, explain, and rationalize everything, all the time. Our heads are forever full of noise and this keeps us from the true and simple path. When I asked him how to over come this, he told me to lean forward. When I did, he smacked on the forehead so hard I went to my knees. then he looked me in the eyes, smiled and said "stop it". Master Lee wasn't much for long speeches when a few words and smack would do.

I no longer judge my targets; they simply are. I don't pay attention to time, because for me there is only NOW. I don't think or plan or plot my way, I just do. My challenge is to once again make this my permanent state of being, Because the Tao is not a technique.

[lugnut]

Along the lines of "slow down and get your hits." Makes me Hulk out a little.

I agree... me too. It should just be "get your hits... all of them..."

[benos]

What if it could be understood that calling your shots unlocks all the speed that you currently possess?

That is it - and hugely so!

You will never know how fast you can go, and how quickly you can acquire targets, until calling every shot is nothing short of your shooting way of life.

be

[Sam]

The whole concept of fast or slow has always been a hindrance to me. (I'll wager a lot of folks feel the same way) Today, I was practicing for the first time in several months. After shooting at long range steel for an hour, I decided to check my draw speed to a 20 yard full paper target. Starting in the same position each time, hands raised and gun holstered, there was a definite difference in the perception of speed on some shots. The timer never varied more than .05 from shot to shot,and the shots were all A/C hits. But the perception was that the shots where I relaxed and paid attention were slow. And the shots that had gaps in the attention seemed fast. It was a bit like falling asleep on a plane ride. The flight seems short if you sleep through most of it.......