Are new rules needed for back to back stages where gun is kept hot?

[CHA-LEE]

I think that we have a hole in the current rules with regards to a match scenario where there are two stages that are physically close to one another and are shot back to back where the shooter is kept “Hot” between stages.

The main issue I see is that in the current rules (8.3.8) the end of the COF is defined by the RO issuing the “Range is Clear” command. In the back to back stage scenario you can’t issue this range command because the range isn’t clear due to the gun still being hot between stage runs. We have other rules that define how certain things can be done before the COF starts/ends. A good example of this is a production or single stack shooter having a magazine in their front pocket.

At a recent Area match I attended there was a double stage scenario were the shooter was kept hot between stages and the CRO of that stage deemed it appropriate to bump a few Production or Single Stack shooters into Open because they put a magazine in their front pocket AFTER shooting the first stage. The CRO’s stance on this was that since the “Range is Clear” command wasn’t given due to being kept hot that the COF was technically still going and the no mag in front pocket rule for Production and Single Stack still applied and thus they were breaking the rules and deserved to be bumped to Open. To me this was a significant failure on the part of the CRO because they knew they were exploiting a hole in the rules that would have a significant negative impact to the shooter. How this specific situation was handled isn’t what I want to focus on here.

What I do want to focus on is how we should handle this “keeping shooters hot between stages” scenario. The current rules do not account for this scenario. Since they do not account for this scenario should we NOT perform this action during matches? Simply unload and clear the shooter on the first stage, then have them make ready again on the next stage? The obvious purpose of keeping the shooter hot between stage runs is to save time by not needing to unload then make ready again a minute later.

Or should we push the NROI team to update the rules so this scenario can be handled appropriately without leaving holes which can lead to hammering shooters with other rules excessively?

[BritinUSA]

In that scenario there is no 'Range is Clear' to end the stage, so on a hot transfer perhaps there should be a 'Stage Complete' command that resets everything while still keeping the stage 'hot'?

[Lifeislarge]

I was a participant in that exact scenario last Saturday at a local match. Regardless of the "RO" keeping the area hot, I insisted on clearing and holstering my weapon between the two stages as if it were any other stage in the match. I am too new at this to start sliding on the habits that I am trying to integrate in my match routine. I also find it to be a safety issue as no announcement to the squad was made prior to the beginning of either stage that it was to remain hot during the transition from one to the other. I felt quite perturbed during the run of these stages and in retrospect, wish I'd said something to the MD.

[ChuckS]

I say how about we don't do 2 stages back to back? I don't know about you guys, but something always seems to go awry on one of them. I can understand some justifications but that sort of thing certainly does not belong in an Area championship! Allow equal preparation time for all the stages

Later,

Chuck

[CHA-LEE]

In that scenario there is no 'Range is Clear' to end the stage, so on a hot transfer perhaps there should be a 'Stage Complete' command that resets everything while still keeping the stage 'hot'?

That is a good suggestion. Maybe adding an alternate range command such as you recommended could be an alternate way of ending the COF. This would fix the current hole in the rules.

[Fireant]

+1 to what Chuck said.

[CHA-LEE]

I say how about we don't do 2 stages back to back? I don't know about you guys, but something always seems to go awry on one of them. I can understand some justifications but that sort of thing certainly does not belong in an Area championship! Allow equal preparation time for all the stages

Later,

Chuck

I agree with your statement as well. Unloading and showing clear, then making ready again has always been my preference. Maybe there should be a rule change in a different part of the rule book that would disallow the ability of "Staying Hot" between stages no matter how close they are. Realistically in the big picture, staying hot really does not save much time because most of the shooters are still going to perform them pre-stage run make ready rituals.

[BritinUSA]

We are always going to have matches (even big ones) where we have two stages on one berm, it allows more clubs with limited facilities to hold bigger matches. Perhaps all we have to do is get something added to the Range Master's handbook (assuming there is one), with some suggestions on how to handle these types of situations so there is some degree of uniformity in their application.

[ChuckS]

We are always going to have matches (even big ones) where we have two stages on one berm, it allows more clubs with limited facilities to hold bigger matches. Perhaps all we have to do is get something added to the Range Master's handbook (assuming there is one), with some suggestions on how to handle these types of situations so there is some degree of uniformity in their application.

You can just do 1 stage with twice the round count. The match is the same "size".

ETA: Peace, out...

Edited August 10, 2012 by ChuckS

[motosapiens]

Call it two 'strings' of the same stage? I'm a newb, but it seems to me if you call it a separate stage, it really needs to have a separate walk-through, and separate 'make ready'. Maybe i'm just not imagining the situation well.

[coldchar]

Last weekend we had a all classifier match. Due to club facilities we have one really large bay which to not fully utilize made no sense.

We elected to put a six round and eight round classifier in the single bay. Our stage instructions included having then shooter shoot Stage 1 then having the RO order the shooter to reholster the gun with the gun ready per 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. The RO then escorted the shooter to the second stage approximately 25 feet away. Thus no issues of RO's not being able to run a common firing line which can be an issue at a local club.

After both stages were shot then both were scored and reset.

Given the current rules even this approach was troublesome as technically the Course of Fire in the first stage was not terminated until after the second was shot (no Range is Clear command). If you really want to reach , requiring a gun be reholstered during a couse of fire is also an issue although the RO certainly has the authority to give commands necessary to make the course safe.

It would have been nice to have appropriate rules to address this situation.

Jim

Edited August 10, 2012 by coldchar

[motosapiens]

If you really want to reach , requiring a gun be reholstered during a couse of fire is also an issue although the RO certainly has the authority to give commands necessary to make the course safe.

How is that a reach? many classifier stages have multiple strings, and most all of those require re-holstering between strings.

[bbbean]

Far and away the simplest solution is to simply go ahead and ULSC between the stages. In my experience, the difference between "ULSC, walk over here, LAMR" vs "reload if necessary, walk over here, get into position. Are you ready?" is pretty minimal and avoids exactly the sort of situation you describe.

The alternative is to either do what the CRO did in your example, which leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, or to simply work according to the "intent" or "spirit" of the rules, which also has potential for problems.

[Skydiver]

Call it two 'strings' of the same stage? I'm a newb, but it seems to me if you call it a separate stage, it really needs to have a separate walk-through, and separate 'make ready'. Maybe i'm just not imagining the situation well.

If you call them strings, then the two "stages" can only be scored Virginia Count or Fixed Time.

[Skydiver]

Also note:

Staying hot plus walk over there plus dropped gun equals DQ.

RIC plus walk over there plus dropped gun equal no harm, no foul (as long the shooter does not handle the gun on it's way down).

So if we want to keep the "stay hot + dropped gun equals DQ", then we have to keep the "stay hot + put mag in front pocket equals open".

Edited August 10, 2012 by Skydiver

[mikeg1005]

Create a different statement "Stage is complete" that has the exact same meaning as "range is clear" (from a rule standpoint) except it permits the shooter to stay hot, and doesn't let anyone down range.

If the CRO below is saying that the course of fire is not "finished" does that mean I can shoot my pistol, down range while walking to the next stage? And if so, which stages do the penalties get applied to?

the CRO of that stage deemed it appropriate to bump a few Production or Single Stack shooters into Open because they put a magazine in their front pocket AFTER shooting the first stage. The CRO’s stance on this was that since the “Range is Clear” command wasn’t given due to being kept hot that the COF was technically still going and the no mag in front pocket rule for Production and Single Stack still applied and thus they were breaking the rules and deserved to be bumped to Open.

I know this thread is about something different...

But from how you described it the CRO is VERY much in the wrong. The revised rules clearly state that magazines can be carried in front of the hip bones provided they are not used during the course of fire.

Put a mag back into the front pocket, is not "using the mag" that is currently in the pocket. How does one get bumped into open for putting a spent mag into your front pocket? And if you do get bumped into open... what happens if I eject a mag and it lands in somewhere in my pocket in front of my hip bones? Do I get bumped into open?

Mike.

[lilbeauxdawg]

quote]

Handgun rule update – USPSA

- Single Stack/Production restrictions to pocket mags/revision to 5.2.4

and division appendix.

Motion: New rule amended language 5.2.4 – makes this official

Moved: A4 Seconded: A2 Passed

Language of 5.2.4:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage

procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in

retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that

purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve

and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the

provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or

speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point,

will be allowed, providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

^^^ copied from another thread

If the shooter didn't reload his gun during the course of fire using the mag from his front pocket then he shouldn't be bumped to open. In CHA-LEE's scenario, even if it was a bay with one stage, according to the RO the shooter would be bumped to open for putting his mag in his front pocket after the unload and show clear command but before the range is clear command which is wrong.

Edited August 10, 2012 by lilbeauxdawg

[Sarge]

Maybe there should be a rule change in a different part of the rule book that would disallow the ability of "Staying Hot" between stages no matter how close they are.

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal.

5.7.5

Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

Edited August 10, 2012 by Sarge

[CHA-LEE]

As I stated in my first post. I don't want to turn this thread into "lets pick apart what the CRO did or not do" in my example. I am sure there is probably another thread somewhere on this forum where my exact example has been discussed and picked apart to death.

I think we all realize that there is a current hole, or multiple holes, in the rules with regards to shooters staying hot between stages. My goal here is to come up with some productive ideas on how we plug those holes.

If the answer is "No more staying hot between stages", I am fine with that. If the answer is "Create an alternate end of COF range command" I am fine with that as well. Maybe the answer is neither one?

[CHA-LEE]

Maybe there should be a rule change in a different part of the rule book that would disallow the ability of "Staying Hot" between stages no matter how close they are.

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal.

The stage procedure in these cases never "Require" the shooter to reholster their gun on the clock, which is the intent of rule 8.2.5. We all know that we are talking about gun handling and range commands or lack there of AFTER the stage has been shot and the official stage time has ended.

Edited August 10, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[bbbean]

We don't need another range command. It's all we can do to get ROs to use the proper range commands as is.

[CHA-LEE]

Maybe there should be a rule change in a different part of the rule book that would disallow the ability of "Staying Hot" between stages no matter how close they are.

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal.

5.7.5

Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

Your interpretation of 5.7.5 is totally out of context. The whole 5.7.x set of rules is based around Malfunctions of Competitors Equipment. The intent of rule 5.7.5 is to not allow a shooter to leave the COF with a loaded handgun that has malfunctioned. Example, shooters runs a stage and has a death jam leaving a live round in the chamber. They stop shooting because of the death jam. In that scenario they can't simply leave the COF with a loaded firearm without RO supervision.

[diehli]

We are always going to have matches (even big ones) where we have two stages on one berm, it allows more clubs with limited facilities to hold bigger matches. Perhaps all we have to do is get something added to the Range Master's handbook (assuming there is one), with some suggestions on how to handle these types of situations so there is some degree of uniformity in their application.

There's already something about it for between strings in the Level I book. I don't have mine in front of me, but the suggested "command" is along the lines of "reload as needed".

Perhaps tandem stage commands along the lines of: "If you are finished, reload as needed for the next stage. Range is hot. Moving to the next stage."

[CHA-LEE]

We don't need another range command. It's all we can do to get ROs to use the proper range commands as is.

I don't agree with your stance of "Our RO's are too stupid to follow the rules we already have so why make the rules any better/complex". If RO's cant follow the rules, including issuing the correct range commands, then they need to stop ROing until they can reeducate themselves on the rules.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to limit the quality or depth of our rules because the lowest common denominators are either to stupid or unmotivated to learn and use the proper rules.

[bbbean]

We don't need another range command. It's all we can do to get ROs to use the proper range commands as is.

I don't agree with your stance...

Because you mischaracterized my position.