retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Is there a minimum age for ROs? And if not should there be? I can just imagine some trial lawyer or insurance company going nuts if an accident ever occurred with the RO in charge being a 10-12 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 George Jones mentioned last weekend that there have been 11 year olds that have attended the RO class. I'd imagine that passing the exam would keep the majority of 10-12 year olds from being certified. If a kid can pass the exam on his own and can command a range, I'd be happy to let him RO me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) George Jones mentioned last weekend that there have been 11 year olds that have attended the RO class. I'd imagine that passing the exam would keep the majority of 10-12 year olds from being certified. If a kid can pass the exam on his own and can command a range, I'd be happy to let him RO me. Passing the test is one thing, having the maturity level to know how to conduct themselves is another. A child is still a child. Edited July 20, 2012 by retarmyaviator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Hence the "command a range" portion. A child is not a child. Some realize that actions have consequences early on and are precocious, adult, and self-confident enough to do what needs to be done. There's a confluence of factors that make a good range officer and if a kid can manage to be passed by the instructor for the range portion as well as pass the written test, I'd trust the RMI's judgment on the kid's ability to do the job. It seems highly unlikely that any of the RMIs would do anything to endanger USPSA or a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I can see a problem with the level of maturity at 10-12. All age groups are a bell curve though, so while few and far between at 10-12, how about 14 or 16? We have had some accomplished shooters in that age group. If they can handle level 2 and 3 matches at that age, and be competitive at the M or GM level I think they can handle being an RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellymc Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) I can see a problem with the level of maturity at 10-12. All age groups are a bell curve though, so while few and far between at 10-12, how about 14 or 16? We have had some accomplished shooters in that age group. If they can handle level 2 and 3 matches at that age, and be competitive at the M or GM level I think they can handle being an RO. I hope being a competitive M or GM never becomes a qualification for being mature or a RO. If so Im in trouble Edited July 20, 2012 by kellymc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I agree that every child is different. Some are ready to drive at 14 or 15 and some are not ready when they are 21! Like was said, if they can RO as well as any other CAPABLE RO then I personally don't have a problem. Still, I think the OP's question has merit. Could there be a legal issue if something were to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I asked this specifically of DNROI John Amadon, and here is his answer: NROI has never had an age requirement for becoming an RO, it is left up to the Instructor to determine if the individual shows the ability to handle competitors safely and within the rules, if they show that ability, they are passed. I can understand people’s concerns, but I do not believe the age is the fundamental factor, I have seen or been advised of issues from adults that would cause the same concerns, starting the next shooter while someone was still down range for example (individual removed from NROI for retraining). Nothing states that the match has to have any specific individual run shooters, a certified RO can handle the clip board and still be an essential part of the staff. Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm a large person and I'm sure it's hard on "adult size" RO's to watch me. I don't see how a "child size" RO could be in a position to see everything going on if the gun is over their head height. That made sense in my head not sure it got out in the same sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm a large person and I'm sure it's hard on "adult size" RO's to watch me. I don't see how a "child size" RO could be in a position to see everything going on if the gun is over their head height. That made sense in my head not sure it got out in the same sense. That's exactly my thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Still, I think the OP's question has merit. Could there be a legal issue if something were to happen? It would certainly be a shame to find out after some club loses a large lawsuit that an age requirement should have been in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Actually, my concern isn't so much on the skill of a teen or a tween to handle the timer, know the range commands, and have a good understanding of the rules and how to apply them. Yes, there maybe some physical disadvantages of being smaller in stature. We let young people earn pilots licenses after all! My concern is how a young person will handle the first (or second, or third) shooter that throws a child-like tantrum yelling and towering over a kid saying "I didn't break the 180! I've shooting in this sport even before you were a twinkle in your father's eye! I know when I've broken the 180 blah blah blah...!!!". I know I wasn't ready for it and I was in my late 30s, and I've taken on the role of Dungeon/Game Master for many RPG games where adults sometimes act even more childish. I remember blinking and then falling back on some things they thought at a conflict management class many years ago. How many young people will have been lucky enough to have taken a similar class? And if not having taken a class, how many will have enough life experience to rely on to try some strategies on resolving the conflict? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) I have thought this same thing, only I was being ROed at a Level II match by a teen. Dad was behind him and "coaching him", it just didn't feel right to me. To me, I train and put thousands and thousands of dollars into the few seconds after the "beep", I expect a little bit more. I think that it kind of puts me in a bad spot as a competitor. For instance, he scored my targets from a few yards away, too far in my opinion. I watched it with the other competitors in my squad (before me) and I think a couple of guys got away with a few marginal hits that were "close enough" and no one said anything. I don't really want to be put in the place to be a horse's rear for saying something (and didn't) to a kid, especially to someone else's kid. If I have a problem with someone else's kid, I am going to their parent, not the kid, and I expect the same for my kids, you come to me first. In an RO type setting it makes it a little awkward. I know I wouldn't put my kids in that situation. All of us have seen competitors get "ruff" (with respect) about a scoring issue (it's competition and kind of expected there will be disagreements), I think that it might be a hard place for a kid to be in. Clipboard? I am fine with that at a local match but when money and all the hard work is on the line, I want a little better. Edited July 20, 2012 by old506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 We let young people earn pilots licenses after all! Yes, we do but even that has a minimum age requirement - minimum age for a private pilot certificate is 16 for balloons and gliders, and 17 for powered flight (airplanes, helicopters, and gyroplanes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert King Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 My concern is how a young person will handle the first (or second, or third) shooter that throws a child-like tantrum yelling and towering over a kid saying "I didn't break the 180! I've shooting in this sport even before you were a twinkle in your father's eye! I know when I've broken the 180 blah blah blah...!!!". First, I shoot with a 12 year old with better gun handling skill, knowledge of the rules and maturity than some of the adults. He is bigger and stronger than many lady shooters who are adults. And at 12 years old, they start developing some good strength and muscles. If a shooter that did not agree with his call took it so far as getting in his face or throwing a child-like tantrum, EVERY other shooter on the bay would most likely step in to deal with said shooter, as they should and would if it were a lady RO. I hate general age requirements for all the above reasons. In a sport with deadly consequences, they should simply be heald to the same standard as an adult. But, the lawsuit argument has merrit, and it is very unfortunate it does. They will sue for anything and often win. My county just lost a lawsuit because we told someone they could not open a drug rehab residence in our county. Heck, none of the kids in it would have been from our county and we live out in the sticks. They sued for discrimination and won, because being a drug addict is apparently a "disability" under federal housing laws. So, we have to pay 5 million (about double our annual property tax rolls). Off topic but an example of the merrit, even though I say screw it and let them RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 In a club match I really wouldn't mind-they have to start somewhere and if Dad (or someone else) is coaching them I have no problem with that. I would hazard a guess that you are not going to see teenagers or younger at an Area match or higher. Some thought needs to be given to the "legal" problem brought up earlier if a death or injury happens while a youth is ROing. Does the national organization have a lawyer on staff or on retainer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) If a shooter that did not agree with his call took it so far as getting in his face or throwing a child-like tantrum, EVERY other shooter on the bay would most likely step in to deal with said shooter, as they should and would if it were a lady RO. Respectfully, this is the problem (outside of the "getting in his face or throwing a tantrum" part). I am sure most of us have witnessed conflict between shooter/ro at one time or another. It is never "personal" it is just competitiveness. If the RO (regardless of age, but in this case in point a child) can't handle the conflict on their own then they shouldnt be out there. I haven't had to do it, but I don't want to be in a position to tell a kid he is wrong or challenge a ruling and have them look back at their father to figure out what to do or, have a father influence their decision, we have a hierarchy in the match for that. I just think that it can put a competitor in a tough spot, certainly one I wouldn't want my kid in. Edited July 20, 2012 by old506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 One would like to assume that a young person, below the age of 16 or so, at a match would be accompanied by a guardian. A trusted adult friend, Uncle, Aunt, Father, Mother, Brother, .... If that is the case and that guardian is also there watching/helping and then it is a learning experience. If not there may be other issues to sort out. Most youngsters in squads I've been in get taken under the wing of the squad and while treated as fellow competitors are watched/helped quite thoroughly. We all wish to impart our experiences, knowledge and wisdom down to them. Even though we don't follow them ourselves at times, eh? Just because it seems someone that age can handle the chore, they still need to be watched closely because it's the unexpected that they may not have the experience to cope with. And we want them to develop well for all of our futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Some thought needs to be given to the "legal" problem brought up earlier if a death or injury happens while a youth is ROing. Does the national organization have a lawyer on staff or on retainer? If they don't they would certainly need one shortly after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 I do appreciate all the comments, I was concerned when I first asked the question the thread would become heated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Some thought needs to be given to the "legal" problem brought up earlier if a death or injury happens while a youth is ROing. Does the national organization have a lawyer on staff or on retainer? If they don't they would certainly need one shortly after. It's possible that the next Executive Director could have a JD and be a step away from being a lawyer. But really, is this another one of our famous internet problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanopistol Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The legal question is a catching point, I have to admit I hadn't thought of it. It will make me pause with my son. Same situation for me, I'd trust him over 76.35% of the people that were at the last match I shot (I can calculate that cuz it was a small match ) One thing I would do, if the opportunity arose, is allow him to RO those individuals that I know are good, safe and wouldn't be disrespectful even if I were ROing. A few fellas at our match that have taken an interest in mentoring him (I won't be smart enough to give hime advice for another 10 years or so according to him) wouldn't mind being ROed by him, and I know they are safe enough. I think the experience is important for a burgenoning young man to get time in-command, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 But really, is this another one of our famous internet problems? It is until someone ends up being shot while a underage RO is in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 How many people do you hear of getting shot at any USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/Bullseye event? Our greatest risk of injury is from a slip and fall because we are not all sure footed as we might always like to be. I do not see much of a chance for an RO under 18 to become a legal issue due to an injury. The earlier we start them in the sport the more mature and well rounded they will be as adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I think it's conducive and helpful for the sport to teach the importance of the safety stuff to our juniors. Getting them started early in the appropriate circumstances is not a bad thing. I'd say the teen RO being coached by his dad at an L2 is exactly the wrong circumstance. Start at a L1 with known-safe shooters. The sport has a good safety record. It's not solely because of the ROs. I can't calculate a percentage, but I'd put it down as the shooters (much?) more so than the ROs. I'm going to conclude that this is, indeed, an internet problem. It's not without merit, but there'd have to be such a confluence of factors that the possibility is remote and it doesn't warrant checks beyond those already in place. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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