Targets taped before shooter sees results

[Coach]

While the guy on the clipboard (RO ?) is scoring targets behind the shooter, who is actually RO'ing the shooter? Just the guy on the timer? If so, fail.

And, if there is an extra RO watching the shooter...I KNOW the match would go faster if that man power was available to reset the stage, instead.

We have the man power it is the squad and it cannot be reset until it is scored. A delegate can double check and should. Scoring errors are not eliminated by waiting for the shooter to see the targets. They still happen.

It is plenty possible to score an array or two as the shooting is still happening and get it exactly right, and save some time. The first order of business is to get the score right for the shooter. The second is to get the stage scored as quickly as possible so that it can be reset. If the shooter missed 4-5 targets first hand but their delegate doesn't. Shrug.

Like I said at our club match if you want to see them all we will let you. At a major where we need to turn things around to keep it flowing. I would have it announced and I would have staff that can get it right there, and that is how we are going to do it. A shooter needing to see 8-10 more targets with two Alpha or Alpha- Charlie on them seems a little ... like... over kill? But if there is a problem like perf hit or a mike due to pulling off. By all means leave it, show them and they can at least see it for themselves.

[Flexmoney]

I think it is a failure of stage design when I can't run a match/stage to allow the shooter to walk with the score keeper and see their hits. Period.

I have only found it necessary in a few instances. To do so as a general rule is bad mojo, IMO.

I can't see the logic in looking harder at a Mike than a Charlie or Delta. They are all points. The all count. They all matter. It's why we look at the scores at the end of the day.

[deacon12224]

I know that this is not the rules forum, but it seems that a lot of discussion has been put into something that is very clearly spelled out in the rulebook. As far as I know, there are no exceptions to the rules for this at level one matches.

If it is a USPSA match, follow the rulebook. There is no room for tribal rules or "the way we do it at our club" in USPSA. Other shooting sports have a reputation for this. We don't need to go down that road.

[jester121]

I would be horrified to see people walking around the bay (even if behind the shooter's 180) during the COF, whether they're scoring or pasting or scrounging brass or chasing butterflies.

Just for reference, at my club we're at 75-80 people, 6-7 stages, usually a couple 32 round stages per match so maybe 180 rd average? First shot is at 10:01 am and I'm usually pulling out of the parking lot by 2:30 pm with all the tear-down and put-away finished. We run an RO and a scorer per squad, RO walks around and scores each target and calls out the scores and the second guy fills out the score sheet. The squad fans out and tapes/resets targets as the RO passes by, and the shooter can either tag along and look at each target, or pick up brass. Things move along very nicely.

For clubs that score on-the-fly, who is writing down those scores, if the clipboard man is supposed to be right behind the RO and the shooter watching for prodecurals?

[Fuelie777]

Although the rule book allows scoring behind the shooter, as a CRO my preference at all times is to provide the shooter the opportunity for reviewing the hits on paper. Very few stages really require scoring behind the shooter. Someone else can pick up magazines. To many times we go to fast in the scoring and errors occur, and/or the shooter does not recieve his earned score. A few extra seconds, even 15 seconds makes all the difference in the world. Most times the delays are prop related, calibration, DQ, precedure challenge, etc. Having an extra RO or two on the stage, shooters prepared with stage resetting, having shooters ready to go when it is their turn, will make it go much faster than trying to score faster and not letting the shooter see targets. I realize that matches need to run to a reasonable schedule, but it could be run smoother. I concur with Flexmoney, to allow the shooter see the targets when at all possible.

With that said, as a shooter, I rarely follow the scorekeeper. But I listen closely to the score callouts.

[Nik Habicht]

I think it is a failure of stage design when I can't run a match/stage to allow the shooter to walk with the score keeper and see their hits. Period.

I have only found it necessary in a few instances. To do so as a general rule is bad mojo, IMO.

I can't see the logic in looking harder at a Mike than a Charlie or Delta. They are all points. The all count. They all matter. It's why we look at the scores at the end of the day.

Center of the A-zone (or B/C/D) hits are pretty easy to call. When those hits land closer to a line, I will take a moment longer to determine if I should overlay the hit, or if its visually clear that it already touched the perf.....

If there's a miss on a target, especially if its on one of the 6 or 8 round per target classifiers, I'll look hard at the hits that are present looking for a double....

[MoNsTeR]

In my experience, scoring behind the shooter doesn't actually save much time on net, though it depends on stage layout. I expect no one's measured it though so it's conjecture either way.

What I can tell you for sure is that if you have even ONE re-shoot due to a premature taping, you'll have erased a big chunk of whatever time you might have gained.

You're better off spending your energy making double-dog-sure you have an attentive squad of tapers and prop-setters working efficiently. Once you've nailed that down the rest is icing.

[Skydiver]

If you only have a squad of 8-10 people pasting behind the shooter is much faster than waiting.

Look at it this way. You have 5 people not taping/reset: shooter, RO, clipboard, on-deck, previous-shooter. That leaves you 3-5 people to reset the stage. A long course where taping behind typically happens is 14 paper and 4 steel. (The typical max of the EzWinScore half sheet scoresheet.)

The sweet spot seems to be at about 11-12 shooters. At this number of shooters, waiting for a target to be scored before taping actually works very well.

Above 14 shooters, then you have people accidentally slacking off the resetting because they think it's their turn to rest and socialize, when other people are thinking the same thing. It's not that they are lazy and don't want to help, but there is also a threshold of the number of bodies you can have on the course. People realize that they do more harm by crowding so they stand back and it gives everybody a chance to rest. But they also need to be attentive and notice that a whole bunch are resting and somebody ought to get their butts downrange and help reset.

[Nik Habicht]

If you only have a squad of 8-10 people pasting behind the shooter is much faster than waiting.

Look at it this way. You have 5 people not taping/reset: shooter, RO, clipboard, on-deck, previous-shooter. That leaves you 3-5 people to reset the stage. A long course where taping behind typically happens is 14 paper and 4 steel. (The typical max of the EzWinScore half sheet scoresheet.)

The sweet spot seems to be at about 11-12 shooters. At this number of shooters, waiting for a target to be scored before taping actually works very well.

Above 14 shooters, then you have people accidentally slacking off the resetting because they think it's their turn to rest and socialize, when other people are thinking the same thing. It's not that they are lazy and don't want to help, but there is also a threshold of the number of bodies you can have on the course. People realize that they do more harm by crowding so they stand back and it gives everybody a chance to rest. But they also need to be attentive and notice that a whole bunch are resting and somebody ought to get their butts downrange and help reset.

And that's why I used to have a box of pasters in my pocket at club matches -- because by preloading my fingertips from the dispenser, I was able to tape 1/2 a stage or more in the same time it took 2-3 others to tape the other half.....

Pasters from the dispenser can turn anyone into a GM quality taper.....

[MoNsTeR]

If you only have a squad of 8-10 people pasting behind the shooter is much faster than waiting.

Look at it this way. You have 5 people not taping/reset: shooter, RO, clipboard, on-deck, previous-shooter. That leaves you 3-5 people to reset the stage. A long course where taping behind typically happens is 14 paper and 4 steel. (The typical max of the EzWinScore half sheet scoresheet.)

The sweet spot seems to be at about 11-12 shooters. At this number of shooters, waiting for a target to be scored before taping actually works very well.

Above 14 shooters, then you have people accidentally slacking off the resetting because they think it's their turn to rest and socialize, when other people are thinking the same thing. It's not that they are lazy and don't want to help, but there is also a threshold of the number of bodies you can have on the course. People realize that they do more harm by crowding so they stand back and it gives everybody a chance to rest. But they also need to be attentive and notice that a whole bunch are resting and somebody ought to get their butts downrange and help reset.

If you have 8 people on a squad you have a much bigger problem, which is that no one gets any time off. You're also going to fly through the whole match in 2 hours so who cares about saving 1 minute per shooter? Which, by the way, is what you're going to save: 1 minute per shooter. That adds up, sure, but let's keep it in perspective.

During peak season Aurora has 20-25 shooters per squad, at which size it's possible to have a dedicated taper for each target (not that we actually do this).

[remoandiris]

Follow the rules.

[Skydiver]

Follow the rules.

Of course. That goes without saying. Designate a delegate to go with the scorer.

Now you have 7 people not helping reset:

shooter,

timer RO watching the gun,

assistant RO watching the shooter and the targets,

scorekeeper,

shooter's delegate,

on deck shooter,

previous shooter

Might as well just reset after all the targets are scored if you have small squad.

[Norther]

While the guy on the clipboard (RO ?) is scoring targets behind the shooter, who is actually RO'ing the shooter? Just the guy on the timer? If so, fail.

This is what they teach at NROI. Two ROs watching the shooter. Even then, I've seen shooters do bad things that get by both ROs but are seen by the squad behind. Even at a major match.

I like to see my hits. I've caught a number of errors (both for and against me), but the real reason is that I just want to see.

[BillD]

I think there are no good reasons for the clipboard RO to be scoring instead of doing his job while the shooter is on the COF.

Then here is your chance to be a match director.

--We run a monthly match that consists of 6-7 stages with 140-150 rounds.

--We generally have between 70-75 shooters of varying degrees of experience and ability.

--Depending on the shooter, a 32 round field course may take between 20 sec to over a minute.

--We start at 11am (and cannot start sooner - no debate)

--We need to be done and all the ranges cleared of props and equipment by 4pm (again - no debate)

--It is logistically impossible to score things they way you want them to be scored

What do you, as match director, cut? Fewer stages or fewer shooters?

What do you, as match director, do when experienced people stop coming to your match because it moves too slow?

YOU are now the match director. It's your decision. Go for it.

If you only have 5 hours to set up, run and tear down a USPSA match, you have range issues, not USPSA issues.

[MoNsTeR]

Given that amount of time I would run no more than 5 stages. But that may be because at ECO clubs we generally run 5 stages, and finish in 5 hours even with 80+ shooters, so I know it can be done. Our shooters know that matches run at a certain pace when you have that many people. If they're willing to endure it they come out, if not they don't. It has never endangered the health of a club. We do score & tape behind on large stages when feasible, but as I said earlier in the thread I have my doubts about the true efficacy of doing so.

FWIW, I am a match director.

[JGus]

Having only shot USPSA locally in Central IL at Lefthanders and Havana, and at Bullet Express in Springfield, the only way I've ever known it to be done is this way:

When a person is done shooting, the RO will walk along the course and call out the hits and a person following will have score sheet. The shooter has the option of following the RO and scorer to see where where their hits landed.

Once the RO calls out the hits and the scorer records them, then they get pasted. It may not sound like it, but it's a very fast process yet we still get to see where our shots are landing.

And I really like it this way as I can walk along with them and see my hits. As someone new to competition shooting I find it very helpful to see where my shots are landing.

I've only been shooting USPSA for about a year and until I read this thread I just thought the way it was done in my area was standard protocol.

Edited August 13, 2012 by JGus