Targets taped before shooter sees results

[DRMCT]

I'm new to USPSA/IPSC, but have been shooting IDPA for a couple years now. I like both, but one thing REALLY bothers me about how the IPSC matches are run at the club I go to. By the time I finish showing clear to the SO and holstering, I'm lucky to get to see half of my targets before they're scored and taped. None of the IDPA matches I go to operate like this. Each shooter gets to see EVERY target if they tag along with the scorekeeper.

Now, I fully understand that operating these IPSC matches this way gets everyone through the matches quicker, but I don't like it. I find great value in see where my shots are going on different targets

Three questions:

1. Is this typically how level 1 matches are run at most clubs?

2. Is this fair to the shooter?

3. Is this okay by USPSA rules?

Thanks, in advance, for your responses.

Mark

[Flatland Shooter]

1. Is this typically how level 1 matches are run at most clubs? Also done at Level 2 and 3 matches

2. Is this fair to the shooter? As long as the rules are followed, i.e. the RO indicates that targets may be taped while the shooter is completing the course of fire.

3. Is this okay by USPSA rules? Covered by Rules 9.6.2 and 9.6.3.

[DrawandDuck]

Three questions:

1. Is this typically how level 1 matches are run at most clubs? Yes, if we waited for shooters to review every target you would turn a 4-5 hr match into a 8-9 hour match. Most matches will call a miss or no shoot to the attention of the shooter and give them a chance to inspect that target.

2. Is this fair to the shooter? Sure, if you are concerned with the accuracy of the score keeping ask one of your buddies to follow along with the score keeper, this occurs at Level 2 and higher matches but havent seen it at Lvl 1 as there just isn't that much at stake.

3. Is this okay by USPSA rules? Sure is..

Edited July 9, 2012 by DrawandDuck

[yoshidaex]

1. Yes if you want to leave within s reasonable amount of time.

2. You can have a friend take note of all your hits but it gets pretty old pretty quick unless you're doing the same for your friend also.

3. Level 1 matches are given a bit more freedom within the rules due to many circumstances.

Read the rule book.

Try a different club.

Ask if they'll hold off on taping so you can see your hits.

But I'm sure the grumpy old guys won't squad with you the next time you show up.

[Poppa Bear]

I'm new to USPSA/IPSC, but have been shooting IDPA for a couple years now. I like both, but one thing REALLY bothers me about how the IPSC matches are run at the club I go to. By the time I finish showing clear to the SO and holstering, I'm lucky to get to see half of my targets before they're scored and taped. None of the IDPA matches I go to operate like this. Each shooter gets to see EVERY target if they tag along with the scorekeeper.

Now, I fully understand that operating these IPSC matches this way gets everyone through the matches quicker, but I don't like it. I find great value in see where my shots are going on different targets

Three questions:

1. Is this typically how level 1 matches are run at most clubs?

2. Is this fair to the shooter?

3. Is this okay by USPSA rules?

Thanks, in advance, for your responses.

Mark

1. Yes/No The match I shot today the shooter had the chance to see all targets because the RO was the one responsible for calling off the hits. And most hits were not scorable until the stage was done other than the steel.

2. Yes/No It gets the stage done quicker but some people really want to see how they were hitting.

3. Yes As long as it is explained up front that it will be done that way the shooter has the chance to designate a rep to follow the scorer. This person should be the second RO though so they should be right up with the shooter to get the correct time and to be watching for faults and safety violations.

It depends on the match and the layout of the stages. Some stages are easy to score as the shooter is going through the COF because they are longer than they are wide. Most of what we shot today was wider than long and all the doors and walls made it tough to score unless you went up to the targets. We had a good crew so they were being pasted almost as fast as they were being scored, and in most cases the clipboard took longer to add up all the points and get the signatures than it took for all the targets to be pasted, steel set, and steel painted.

A second point to remember is that sometimes things do no go as planned and if you start scoring before the stage is finished the shooter WILL get a reshoot. An example would be one of the stages from today. The shooter got 3/4 way down when they realized they forgot an activating popper. They ran all the way back to the beginning to take the steel and avoid 4 misses and 3 FTE penalties. If people had started scoring and pasting the stage before he was done, we would have had to call a stop and then had him reshoot due to interference.

[Aglifter]

Don't be "that guy," from a social perspective...

If you want to know where your shots are going, ask someone.

IDPA stages, typically, have far fewer targets, and tend to be smaller - which makes it more likely that people will wait for the shooter to glance over the stage.

[glefos]

Read the rulebook.

9.6.2

[gunguru]

Here for L2 we can follow the RO and Scoreboard to see our score, but it's a fast process, we don't have time to take pictures or see how we shoot, it's only to confirm the score. Of course, we have to recover our mags after, or have a fellow shooter do it for us.

And to see how accurately you shoot or group, go to your range and shoot, a match isn't the place for this.

[Poppa Bear]

In most cases I do not follow the RO as they score. I am in front of them checking them out myself. If the hit is a possible perf hit I will hang long enough to see how they score it and to challenge if needed, otherwise I am well in front of them. For the most part the only targets I care about are turners and swingers.

[twodownzero]

If you want to know where your hits are, call your shots.

Maybe I should, but I don't even physically check my targets at a major tournament. After the shooting is over, nothing I can do will change the scores, other than perhaps catching an error in scoring.

[Mitch Harrington]

Catching an error in scoring is the EXACT reason you should follow behind the RO. Nobody is perfect.

[wgnoyes]

If you want to know where your hits are, call your shots.

Maybe I should, but I don't even physically check my targets at a major tournament. After the shooting is over, nothing I can do will change the scores, other than perhaps catching an error in scoring.

If you're calling your shots, you're taking too long.

[cas]

Catching an error in scoring is the EXACT reason you should follow behind the RO. Nobody is perfect.

Problem is the RO is usually still watching you shoot, while someone else is scoring them.

[twodownzero]

If you want to know where your hits are, call your shots.

Maybe I should, but I don't even physically check my targets at a major tournament. After the shooting is over, nothing I can do will change the scores, other than perhaps catching an error in scoring.

If you're calling your shots, you're taking too long.

If that's the case, I'm not in a hurry.

In fact, I think that it's when I'm not calling my shots, that I'm not taking long enough. Or not doing what I should be doing with the time I'm taking. Either way my focus is strained if I don't know where my shots hit based on the sight picture at the time.

[Flexmoney]

I agree with the opening poster. I think it is BS.

I want to see my hits. It is why I shoot.

I try not to ever do that when RO'ing stages at major matches. I really don't see where anyone else would need to do so either (expect a very few...RARE occasions)

[Mitch Harrington]

Catching an error in scoring is the EXACT reason you should follow behind the RO. Nobody is perfect.

Problem is the RO is usually still watching you shoot, while someone else is scoring them.

That can definitely be a problem. In that case, having a buddy follow behind the score keeper is helpful.

[Graham Smith]

As a shooter, I would prefer to have the RO score all the targets with me following behind. As a MD I recognize that I could not put on a match of the same size with as many shooters as we run if that was done for every shooter. It's purely a matter of logistics.

[jkatz44]

In major matches, I follow the RO/scorekeeper to verify score. In local matches, I don't really care since I know where all my hits went so there's really no need to even go check out the targets. I trust the ROs at the range that they will make a fair call. And if there is a target that is questionable, it is usually brought to my attention.

[Poppa Bear]

The RO can make a big difference here. With practice they can rapidly call off the hits. My problem is I sometimes call them quicker than the scorer can write them. I wait until I hear a responce before I call the next one.

[remoandiris]

As a shooter, I would prefer to have the RO score all the targets with me following behind. As a MD I recognize that I could not put on a match of the same size with as many shooters as we run if that was done for every shooter. It's purely a matter of logistics.

At a Level II and above, I think it depends on stage manning and design. The RO and scorekeeper are supposed to be watching the shooter. If there is a 3rd person who is keeping score while 2 ROs watch the shooter, and it is safe to score the targets during the CoF, I see nothing wrong with that. The stage scoring proces should be explained to each squad prior to shooting. If there are only 2 match officials on a stage, there should be plenty of time for the shooter to follow the RO and scorekeeper during the scoring process as the scoring has to wait until the shooting is done.

The stages I ROd at 3 majors in the past 8 months were ran so the shooter or his delegate could follow the RO and scorekeeper with no problem. However, I will NOT stop scoring and call a shooter over to point out a miss. The shooter is responsible for following the scoring, not the other way around.

One other thing on Level 1...it depends on the culture of the club. I shot a local on OKC a few years ago. The culture of that club at that time was to wait until the RO called the hits. At the locals I shoot in Fla, the person pasting the target calls the score unless they are not sure. In that case, the RO calls it.

Edited July 9, 2012 by remoandiris

[Poppa Bear]

A style I see used a bit is to score behind the shooter but nothing is taped until the stage is done. Misses or perf hits are called to the RO's and shooters attention. We also try to standardize the scoring order so that each target can be verified if there is a question.

[lcs]

1. Yes if you want to leave within s reasonable amount of time.

2. You can have a friend take note of all your hits but it gets pretty old pretty quick unless you're doing the same for your friend also.

3. Level 1 matches are given a bit more freedom within the rules due to many circumstances.

Read the rule book.

Try a different club.

Ask if they'll hold off on taping so you can see your hits.

But I'm sure the grumpy old guys won't squad with you the next time you show up.

Freedom at local matches does not mean stretch the rules anyway you want.

Except at major matches where you have hundreds of shooters to get through each stage, there is no reason why a qualified RO can not score each target at a local match. If your short of qualified ROs or the stage is complicated, then let the shooter know the procedure and give him or her a chance to ask a fellow squad member to verify the targets scored by an alternate RO.

The grumpy old guys just need to be grumpy then!

[EkuJustice]

At the "local" matches within driving distance shooters from the home club I shoot at usually fill up our own squad to the brim at most matches in the area to the tune of about 12-13 shooters. We do not wait around at all for the shooter to see the targets. Depending on the COF alot of the targets are usually scored before the COF is even finished and if possible due to layout pasting is already started. Everyone works and it makes for a very fast squad. Pretty much trust the people your shooting with and they will usually point out the mikes no shoots etc. It makes the day go much quicker when your not standing around forever especially in the heat. It is usually just preference but it works for the squad I usually shoot on.

[kevin c]

At our club "it depends".

Some stages, all the targets are well down range of where the shooter finishes, so everybody goes forward to score at the same time. We have other bays where it is possible to have close targets up range on a side berm. Many times these get scored by the scorekeeping RO while the shooter is still slinging lead downrange. Other stages are between.

But the shooter always gets called to mikes or other questionable shots.

I'm talking about heavy participation level one club matches here, where we can have 20 person squads on each of five bays. Nobody has objected to folks trying to keep things moving along.

At the major matches we host, the shooter or designate follows the scoring RO and has an opportunity to see each target.

[Ace38super]

I think there are no good reasons for the clipboard RO to be scoring instead of doing his job while the shooter is on the COF. The RO with the timer should be allowed to concentrate on the gun and the shooter, leaving other important duties like watching for foot faults and target engagement to the person on the clipboard. Too many Level 1 matches are run with a casual attitude that can bleed over to safety issues. While we can't have ROs that stay on the stage at a level 1 match we can take the extra 30 seconds to have the timer RO call the score and the shooter see their hits.