Class progression: C to M & seeing what you need to see...

[DonovanM]

I originally posted this on the new Doodie Project shooting forums at http://www.doodieproject.com, but thought it may have some relevance here as well.

I wanted to throw a quick blurb up here about my experience going from C to Master. I'm sure this is a goal of a lot of people here and I thought I'd share my experience. If you can suffer through my long windedness that is.

First of all, I'm not really doing it the best way... I only have ~6,000 rounds downrange in my lifetime, with the majority of that being shot in club matches (which in hindsight is not really the best way to train I think). I blame this on my starting to shoot competitively right before I went back to school. D'oh. If you have a bigger budget... well I envy you. I would love to shoot 250rds 3x/week and I think not live fire practicing very often is a real handicap to my progression. Actually shooting bullets out of my gun feels weird, as I've gotten here pretty much completely via somewhat diligent and regular dryfire practice.

Anyway, getting back to my progression. The first classifier I ever shot was a B score, if only just. Looking back, I feel as though that was a performance that was pretty indicative of my skill level at the time and was a repeatable indication of my skill level. I went exactly as fast as I could see what I needed to see. The problem was for the next several months I tried to shoot way above my skill level and went hero or zero on most of the stages I shot, 95% of the time ending up as a zero with some sporadic moments of half decent mediocrity that I celebrated and tried to replicate every time I was on the line. Didn't work. As one wise formerly local shooter put it, "The buzzer goes off and you shoot at one speed, max speed. You really need to learn how to take your foot off the gas and stop shooting at "Brown" and start shooting at the A zone." I went way too fast to see what I needed to see for my skill level so it ended up taking me 6 months from my first match and B classifier to actually earn my B card.

Without exception, I have put down the most solid stages (and associated classifier scores) when I was relaxed and reigned myself in to shoot only at my repeatable, consistent skill level. I believe the phrase "you can miss fast enough to win" is a complete departure from what is required to succeed in this sport, as missing got me nowhere performance wise for a very long time. After 9 months in the sport I was finally able to keep my ego in check, relax, and reign myself in on a somewhat consistent basis. This is when I made A class. I still went way too fast for my skill level but I was able to keep it in check more and more.

This trend has continued until now, where if I actually execute my stage plan well (which doesn't really have to do with shooting faster than I can see), if I shoot with less awareness and more tension than I should, I usually only end up with a few (or several) too many charlies/deltas without ending up completely in the ditch... most of the time. At present I've shot several matches in the past couple months with 90% plus points, with a few in the 93-94 range which is where I'd like to stay. I'm gradually building in more speed and just becoming more comfortable with only seeing exactly what I need to see while getting away with good points. This is a good place to be I think.

Sorry to nerd out on you all but for those familiar with physics (or not, hopefully my explanation is sufficient), my progression has followed something of a damping effect, where the amplitude of my oscillations between going too fast for my skill level and not seeing enough vs. seeing too much and spending too much time on each target have somewhat reduced over time, like the following graph where the x axis (the horizontal line in the middle, lol) can denote the "Goldilocks zone" of seeing just enough (called "equilibrium" in physics, which also fits perfectly in terms of your vision driving your shooting). See below.

This is why I'm hesitant to make blanket statements about "seeing more" and need to qualify my statement about me shooting my best scores when I've been relaxed and shooting to my skill level. Perhaps you need to spend a bit of time not seeing enough to know where the Goldilocks zone really resides. Or maybe not, this is just the way I've gone about it (I'm also an idiot so you might be better off disregarding my advice). To get even further into physics (SORRY!) this would be the scale between being overdamped and underdamped. My progression, and the graph above would be closer to being underdamped (or even undamped) where the graph swings wildly between the equilibrium state before coming to rest. A person who starts at one end of the scale and immediately heads for the Goldilocks zone/equilibrium would be overdamped, which I think would be a hell of a lot faster/better but might not be how people operate. I don't really know, I have a sample size of 1. Might be interesting to hear about other people's experience with this for the sake of knowing how people progress better.

And another thing... Pushing yourself to go faster and faster and raising your skill level is a tough, laborious process. It is frustrating, difficult, and takes a lot longer than I think most people have the patience and dedication for. It's been sort of a two steps forward one step back thing for me. I think I make progress at something only to find it gone in the next session. I believe one's ability to power through this and stay motivated is the sole determining factor in their rise through the skill levels - at any technical skill, not just shooting, be it basketball, playing the piano, riding a motorcycle etc. Duh, right? But what I'm getting at here is that I don't really believe in "innate talent," I believe this is a term that mediocre people use to justify their lack of dedication. "Oh, well I'm just not as talented as those guys" - no, bullshit, you haven't worked as hard. I've been called a natural and it's irritating because it negates all the hard work I've put into this damn thing. Like I was just born with A or M class USPSA pistol skills. Bullshit.

In the end though, I have been rewarded with some truly serene moments on the firing line where I felt completely in touch with my body and the machine I was wielding in my hands, sufficient to make it all worthwhile and then some... and I'm looking forward to progressing my skills further so I experience this more often. I hope everyone has had experiences like that so they really know what they're practicing for, as I think that's what the sport is all about - for me at least.

Please if you have any questions feel free to ask. I would really feel bad after putting all this effort into this post if people didn't get it. Thanks.

[kcobean]

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

[calvary45]

I like the part about "innate talent" lately more i have been reading the book overachievement and he says the same thing about gifted people. Thanks fot the post

[Chris iliff]

Yes, I can see what you are saying perfectly. I think it's an apt description. I think everyone is different, but they are going to go through what you have described if they are pushing and really desire improvement. Some quicker, some slower. I also think some give up completely or convince themselves that B, A, or M, is all the higher they are capable of, sad really.

Good post, thanks.

[sroe3]

Thanks for the informative post. It reenforces that what I'm trying to accomplish is attainable. Practice, planning, and self awareness are vital to take the next step in the sport. See you Sunday at the NW Challenge series match.

[Babaganoosh]

Donovan, Do you think you are truly a Master shooter or just a Master of shooting classifiers?

I am not discounting dryfire practice at all but how do you do in field courses? Especially ones with a lot of movement? How do you place in the match standings?

I do think you are a great example of what practicing fundamentals can do for you.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Babaganoosh

[Chris iliff]

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

Here is my take as an A class.

Read Lanny's book. I was right where you find yourself. Yes, I would get so nervous I'd shake, literally. That's part of the addiction, it's adrenaline pumping fun for me. Has kept me coming back for more 9 years.

Here is where I'm at: I'm about one oscillation back from the goldilocks zone.

I know if I completely SEE what I need to SEE, no more, no less, I'm golden. I know that for me, I never think "speed", it's a killer. I think "shoot A,s at your natural pace numb nuts". But when I practice, I try to bump my natural pace up. Practice is for my "trying", matches for my natural A's. So if I've trained correctly, in I match I might be thinking at the buzzer, "go collect your A's". Because I've trained it for quickness at home, it happens. It's how I shoot. It's who I am, the "try" is gone. It's simply, " Go get your A's"

Didn't mean to take over the thread, but I love this stuff.

It's becoming art to me.

[DonovanM]

Donovan, Do you think you are truly a Master shooter or just a Master of shooting classifiers?

I am not discounting dryfire practice at all but how do you do in field courses? Especially ones with a lot of movement? How do you place in the match standings?

I do think you are a great example of what practicing fundamentals can do for you.

Oh, make no mistake, I am certainly only a Master at shooting classifiers (and not even that some days). I really doubt I would be able to shoot 85+% at Nationals... my goal if I can make it this year is 80% and I would also be really happy with 75. I have a lot to work on in the consistency and stage breakdown department which has mostly to do with the degree to which I visualize the stage I'm about to shoot. I have this awful habit of being lazy and overconfident and don't prepare as well as I should. I'm starting to "get it" now and recognize when I haven't prepared for a stage enough though, so I'm working on it.

I wouldn't say I'm completely terrible on field courses (usually, definitely am sometimes!) but I do perform noticeably better, relatively, on stand and deliver courses without a lot of movement. When I remember my stage plan and shoot in the Goldilocks zone I do fairly well, and even with mistakes I still seem to be even with the other local M's and not too far behind the GM's... but this is only in club matches which don't really indicate much. There is another local M who makes it a habit of beating me by 1-5% every match, but I don't feel so bad as he's ruthlessly consistent (something that I'm not).

The classification system might be flawed but I still think going from C to M represents a large and quantifiable increase in skill. How that relates to major match performance is an altogether different story, and between where I'm at now and where Ben Stoeger is at would be a much bigger jump than the one between now and when I started (C to M). I think with what I've learned getting here though, my progression to that level is a bit less intimidating and I hope to offer a similar effect to people at the C or B class level who may be intimidated by the performance level indicative of shooting M and GM-level classifiers.

[DonovanM]

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

Yeah that's the whole thing, man. That's what I struggled with for the longest time. In my post I tried to explain why I couldn't just tell someone like you, "just reign yourself in and see what you need to see" etc. Not seeing what you need to see may be a prerequisite to knowing where the Goldilocks zone really is... Or it might not, I don't really know. It was for me.

My advice for you, based on my experience, would be to continue what you're doing, but to realize in the back of your mind that you'll really start improving when you're able to reign yourself in and shoot better points. Use that to start incorporating small changes in the way you shoot stages. Getting frustrated and losing motivation is a killer and the biggest thing to avoid when progressing. It is much, much worse than failure or terrible performances by themselves, and one doesn't have to lead to the other. Instead of getting down on yourself, just use it as a learning experience. Also don't fight yourself too hard and try to influence your performance too strongly one way or the other as trying that, then not being able to execute, have been what was most frustrating for me.

[DonovanM]

Thanks for the informative post. It reenforces that what I'm trying to accomplish is attainable. Practice, planning, and self awareness are vital to take the next step in the sport. See you Sunday at the NW Challenge series match.

No problem, and it really is. See you then.

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

Here is my take as an A class.

Read Lanny's book. I was right where you find yourself. Yes, I would get so nervous I'd shake, literally. That's part of the addiction, it's adrenaline pumping fun for me. Has kept me coming back for more 9 years.

Here is where I'm at: I'm about one oscillation back from the goldilocks zone.

I know if I completely SEE what I need to SEE, no more, no less, I'm golden. I know that for me, I never think "speed", it's a killer. I think "shoot A,s at your natural pace numb nuts". But when I practice, I try to bump my natural pace up. Practice is for my "trying", matches for my natural A's. So if I've trained correctly, in I match I might be thinking at the buzzer, "go collect your A's". Because I've trained it for quickness at home, it happens. It's how I shoot. It's who I am, the "try" is gone. It's simply, " Go get your A's"

Didn't mean to take over the thread, but I love this stuff.

It's becoming art to me.

I've really gotta read Lanny's book now that I'm focusing so much more on the mental side of things, and I think you have a very good grasp on things and welcome you to take over this thread however you'd like.

[DonovanM]

Here is a blurb about women and more accuracy driven shooters in general that I posted on the Doodie forums:

I feel that there are some extraneous variables here, such as personality types, age, physical stature, etc, that are not being accounted for. For example, men tend to be more impulsive, while women tend to be more careful. I have a feeling the majority of women would tend to be more on the "overdamped" side, while the majority of men would be on the "underdamped" side. So how does one overcome such a hurdle of forcing one's self to pull the trigger prior to seeing as much of the sight as one feels comfortable seeing (me) or forcing one's self not to pull the trigger until they see at least some semblance of a sight (Donovan). Do you have any tricks or tips for this?

Oh I think you are right on the money about different personality types. I don't think I mentioned this specifically but in my first couple matches around the time I first got my membership I shot something crazy like 95-98% of the available points in a match. I was certainly slow, but I wish I could have held on to that as I think it would have been much easier and less stressful to progress if I continuously shot 90%+ points throughout, but just incorporated more and more speed into the equation. But as I said soon after I started shooting, my ego took over and I became obsessed with speed and looking good, etc.

The only meaningful advice I can give you on the matter is to seek instruction from a top female shooter. I have heard what you are describing far too many times as indicative of how female shooters, or really any careful, accuracy-driven shooter in general, operate in this sport.

Now, speaking from my experience - which is certainly suspect and I would implore you not to give it unjust levels of consideration - it is a conscious effort for me to build in accuracy. I am naturally driven to go fast and look good on Youtube. My ego yearns for this and if I'm not paying attention this is what I revert to. Obviously you don't have that kind of ego as we're not dealing with the same kinds of problems. Based on my generalized observations of and experience with females (again... suspect), I think yours might be closer to never wanting to ever be wrong. Hence your need to ensure that every single shot is exactly where you want it. So in this regard I don't think the need to defeat one's ego is specific to a certain gender. It's taken me this long (1.5 years) to really move past it and make some real progress in spite of it. It may or may not take that long for you.

What it came down to for me was that I had to give myself permission to go slow. This is a good statement for a soundbite but isn't exactly accurate - a more accurate statement would be that I had to give myself permission to not go as fast as humanly possible 100% of the time. Along the same lines, I believe you will have to give yourself permission to miss. And by this, more accurately I would mean that you will have to give yourself permission to put bullets where you might not exactly want them to go. Which, if my struggle with going fast is any indication, is not a habit you may want to break any time soon. This is fine. I made small, gradually increasing changes over time to really get to a point where my ego wasn't completely running my shooting.

What's interesting for me is that, really, in the ideal state of shooting we want to go as fast as possible while putting bullets in exactly the right place without taking many, if any risks in the matter. So the ideal state is basically a middle point between what my ego wants to do and what your ego wants to do. So in order to become better, I have to be more like a woman and you have to be more like a man. Which isn't exactly accurate but makes for a good soundbite.

[DoubleL]

After just one match and a classifier, I learned two very valuable points, both directly related to your opening post. The first is that A's are the way to go. Period. Even slow A's. I watched guys that were very fast, and it seemed like they were trying to accomplish a skill discussed in length here in another post, the speed vs. accuracy thread. Even as a beginner I saw right away, the absolute skill level required to actively balance speed vs. accuracy WHILE shooting a stage is immense. I viewed what they were trying to do as a mistake, had this particular shooter just made ready and backed off his top speed, his scores would have been significantly better. Dropping 4-7 paper with C/C or C/D dragged this guy down in the name of speed. I guess you would say he was way at the top of an oscillation. His times were 1/3 of mine, his points were in the 60-80% range though. It was hard to watch such a good shooter self destruct, on purpose.

The second goes hand in hand with the first thing I learned. Forced speed is the worst habit to start, and the hardest to break once it has sunk it's teeth into you. I observed same shooter, he quite literally couldn't make himself slow down to get a good hit and move on. Clearly hooked on the idea that he could easily make up a shot should he miss faster than he could just get a good hit to begin with. Back to physics, he was stuck at the tip top of a wild oscillation. All 5 stages went this route for this shooter. His splits and transitions were easily half mine. Speed alone will not get you to the top.

I am very happy I started this sport, the mental aspect is what really got me hooked. It's like a fierce battle inside your own mind! I tell my friends about USPSA and they say stuff like duh just shoot fast it sounds easy. They laugh when I counter that it's a 95% mental excersize.

Thanks for a good subject. Discussions like this always bring up good points.

[Chris iliff]

DonovanM,

My mentor highly recommends Saul Kirsch's mental management DVD. I don't have it yet, but it's on the list.

[dravz]

And another thing... Pushing yourself to go faster and faster and raising your skill level is a tough, laborious process. It is frustrating, difficult, and takes a lot longer than I think most people have the patience and dedication for. It's been sort of a two steps forward one step back thing for me. I think I make progress at something only to find it gone in the next session. I believe one's ability to power through this and stay motivated is the sole determining factor in their rise through the skill levels

Thanks for this, Donovan. As I push myself in practices and my classification percentages have steadily risen, I keep running into technique problems which need fixing. But often when I fix something I feel like I've broken something else in the process! Of course, what's really going on is when I fix something it makes the next obstacle readily apparent, so it's a Good Thing. But man it sure can get frustrating!

I'm glad to hear someone else has experienced the same process and come out better for it.

[E K]

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

Kelly,

IMO you need to remove any and all thoughts of the 'S' word. See what you need to see and everything else will follow.

[benos]

Great opening post Donavan.

If you make your goal to shoot all As (or mostly all As) as fast as you can know you are doing that, you will be on the right path. Then as you become more familiar with what you have to see, for each shot, to do that, the time it takes you to know you are shooting all As will begin to naturally diminish. Because your underlying goal is to shoot all As as fast as you can.

be

[kcobean]

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

Kelly,

IMO you need to remove any and all thoughts of the 'S' word. See what you need to see and everything else will follow.

I shot a match on Sunday and I did make it my purpose to ignore the S word and just see. I "saw" (really saw) my front sight moving more than any previous match. It's a totally different way of approaching this sport than trying to muscle through every stage. I feel like I got closer to that zen state where time slows down and things just happen. It was a good match overall.

I definitely need LOTS of work on those dry fire drills though. Video of the match shows a lack of muscle memory in so many areas.

Edited June 27, 2012 by kcobean

[theycallmeingot]

good post. pretty much spot on.

[Jimgabelbauer]

I'm a mid-C shooter right now (55%). One of the things I find hardest to do is to step to the line and relax. I get so wrapped up in trying to push my speed and work my stage plan that I end up shooting in the low 80's in total points. I always go through the same "if I shoot only as fast as I can to see what I need to see, I won't be competitive" drill and it always ends up costing me points. The self-discipline and self-control part of this game is one of the toughest things to master. Would you agree?

Here is my take as an A class.

Read Lanny's book. I was right where you find yourself. Yes, I would get so nervous I'd shake, literally. That's part of the addiction, it's adrenaline pumping fun for me. Has kept me coming back for more 9 years.

Here is where I'm at: I'm about one oscillation back from the goldilocks zone.

I know if I completely SEE what I need to SEE, no more, no less, I'm golden. I know that for me, I never think "speed", it's a killer. I think "shoot A,s at your natural pace numb nuts". But when I practice, I try to bump my natural pace up. Practice is for my "trying", matches for my natural A's. So if I've trained correctly, in I match I might be thinking at the buzzer, "go collect your A's". Because I've trained it for quickness at home, it happens. It's how I shoot. It's who I am, the "try" is gone. It's simply, " Go get your A's"

Didn't mean to take over the thread, but I love this stuff.

It's becoming art to me.

I think this describes where I'm at perfectly. I'm an A right now, but I'm working on speed/control/accuracy in practice. Matches/ classifiers are just about shooting A's. I think once you become convinced that the only thing that matters is shooting A's, everything comes together. Anytime I find myself "trying" I read the wanna b speedy thread.

[Chris iliff]

That "wannabe speedy" thread is great. I've read it several times. Time to read it again.

[Less]

Wow... Great description! Thanks for such an insightful post!

[wdlong1]

great post - right on target for me. I am a mid B level shooter and having been pushing hard (in matches) to improve performance. Big mistake -- have been shooting way more Mikes and Delta's then I did when I was "learning" to shoot competitively. You iterated perfectly what I have been recently realizing that I need to do. -- shoot all alpha's. A GM told me once that if you shoot 95% of the points without racing that most of the time you will be at or near the top. As another poster said -- it really is all about discipline in a match to shoot for all A's (or nearly all A's) and not accept delta's and mikes in the name of speed. Thank you for this post.

[benjamin]

not to go too far off topic, but the denial whole innate talent thing doesn't hold much validity in my eyes. Science shows the exact opposite by age 6 millions of neurological pathways are shut down and certain pathways are fostered and for the most part THEY CAN'T BE CHANGED, that is a biological fact. I have played sports my whole life (tons of basketball) and lifted weights for over a decade (and was also a personal trainer). He is the deal i have known people that have practiced ten times the amount of other guys in basketball and still aren't very good. I also know a guy that doesn't work out in the gym very consistently but very physically gifted and even though he weighs 220 he can bench 350 without even working out consistently. Even the way our body processes glucose plays a factor in our weight. All these things are scientific facts. Can you be great without practice of course not, no one would make that ignorant argument, but in the same way there are guys that can jump out the gym in basketball without ever touching a weight, there are guys that are "naturally" good at shooting. The same quickness that some guys naturally have in basketball, is just like some guys are naturally going to be able to draw quicker. You see it all the time, i took a class with a guy that has been shooting for 18 years competitively and i have been shooting competitively for about 1 year and i was crushing his times, accuracy, etc.. and it wasn't because he wasn't trying i can assure you of that.

There is nowhere in life this isn't true, i am in sales and i have had guys that try twice as hard as i do yet produce less. There are guys that train harder than people in the nba but just aren't physically talented enough, there are singers that get the best voice coaches yet never make a hit record. i could go on and on.

But basically the argument becomes if you took 100 people and they all trained exactly the same, you would get the same results. Science has shown us the complete opposite. for the record i am aware of the 10,000 hour rule, etc..

[BoyGlock]

although I work hard since I entered this sport (at a late age) and amply rewarded (imo), I tend to agree w/ benjamin. but in the same vein, I practice hard because I believe I am not that talented.

[Pensfan]

Thanks for the great write-up DonovanM. I feel I am in your shoes as well as the majority of my progression has come from dry-fire. I have been involved in USPSA since March and just got my B card and recently shot two high A classifiers... Am I an 'A shooter', or a 'B Shooter even? I don't think so. I think I rock at classifiers and am looking for a way to expand my skills and grow into a legit A shooter before moving beyond in to M and beyond.