Almost DQ'ed for bringing the gun out early

[Jim Norman]

I think that we might want to re-visit the Range communications issue.

We have people that just finished shooting, are watching the match, are getting ready etc. A general warning issued, especially after perhaps a prolonged down time, maybe a prop failure or calibration might not be a bad idea.

I like "Eyes and Ears, Range is going Hot!" or some similar phrasing.

Then after we are sure everyone is ready to proceed with the stage, Make Ready and on through the command cascade.

One thing you can go is stand in front of the shooter so that he would have to draw his gun on you when you are speaking before the 'official start of the COF'

This SHOULD keep anyone from making the potential error described by the OP.

[Poppa Bear]

There is a lot of discussion about what to issue and when. That said, the best place and time to issue safety warnings to the squad is when you are NOT by the shooter or in the starting area. Any shooter who starts to Make Ready after I called out "Going Hot" or "Eyes and Ears" while I am still 10 to 15 feet away from the start position will definitely earn a DQ. If I notice a target that has not been pasted and I call out for it as I am doing a stage check, and you as the shooter start to make ready when I am still 25 feet away, you are getting a DQ.

If I am by the shooter then it is best to have their full attention as I ask them to place their hands on their head as someone goes down range to reset a piece of steel or fix a small detail. It is hard to confuse "Hands on your head while we reset a piece of steel" with any of the range commands.

[Jim Norman]

Strange as it may seem, I have issues with making the on the line shooter put his hands up in his head while some one is down range. I stand with them, in front of them on their gun side and tell them just stand easy and don't move. Two things, If I don't trust them to do this, I don't trust them to shoot, and #2, If they are going to shoot the stage, is it really fair to make them stand by with their arms up for a minute or so before we let them shoot? It will have an effect.

[Shawn Knight]

How the hell does the shooter get in the box? Isn't it the RO's job to direct him there? Does the RO need flags to indicate commands of that sort so that there's no confusion about the RO speaking anything but the range commands?

Since when is my responsibility to tell someone it is OK to stand in the shooting area?

Since always. See 7.1.1, 7.1.2, and 7.1.6.

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

Doesn't say that I have to tell them that is ok to be the next shooter.

7.1.6 Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons and

activities within the entire range, including range safety, the operation

of all courses of fire and the application of these rules. All match disqualifications

and appeals to arbitration must be brought to his attention.

The Range Master is usually appointed by and works with the

Match Director, however, in respect of USPSA sanctioned Level III

and Nationals matches, the appointment of the Range Master is subject

to the prior written approval of the Director of NROI.

Not my job...

[diehli]

Right. You clearly have an excellent concept of match administration.

[Shawn Knight]

Sorry for drifting...

[Shawn Knight]

Right. You clearly have an excellent concept of match administration.

Actually I have an excellent concept of USAF administration (which means I do everything the hard way). It would be like waiting for a cashier to tell its OK to put your groceries on the belt at the grocery store. If I am running the timer I expect my second RO to have the shooters in order. The Shooters should know where we are starting and be close or at least somewhat ready to start. Not 20 ft away looking at me meekly wondering if they can come over to me or step into the shooting area. Makes me feel like a prison guard, “Boss! Can I shootz my gun now?”

[diehli]

Someone in the box relates to safety. It's really a simple concept: the RO controls the stage. Period.

[aztecdriver]

How the hell does the shooter get in the box? Isn't it the RO's job to direct him there? Does the RO need flags to indicate commands of that sort so that there's no confusion about the RO speaking anything but the range commands?

Since when is my responsibility to tell someone it is OK to stand in the shooting area?

Since always. See 7.1.1, 7.1.2, and 7.1.6.

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

Doesn't say that I have to tell them that is ok to be the next shooter.

7.1.6 Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons and

activities within the entire range, including range safety, the operation

of all courses of fire and the application of these rules. All match disqualifications

and appeals to arbitration must be brought to his attention.

The Range Master is usually appointed by and works with the

Match Director, however, in respect of USPSA sanctioned Level III

and Nationals matches, the appointment of the Range Master is subject

to the prior written approval of the Director of NROI.

Not my job...

Reread the RO Creed. Maintain the control over the range. Safety, efficiency and speed of the competition, in that order. Non-overbearing authority. More or less, do what you need to do with professionalism to keep things moving fairly. On my stages, the next shooter is called out by the score keeper when he receives the next shooters score sheet. It assists in helping the competitors to be ready, be efficient and to avoid issues with scoresheet mixups. All of which you are called to do by the creed.

There's specific requirements called out in the rulebook for running the COF. There are NOT specific requirements in the rulebook for stage management, but they are still part of the job.

As to the issue of saying anything between shooters, I choose not to if I can help it. Occasionally you will hear me ask who is my next shooter if I have not yet heard the name or if there happens to be more than one person milling around as tends to happen occasionally. I will have a non-timer RO give "eyes and ears" before the squad starts a stage right after the walkthrough and time up has been announced. Other than that it's the commands.

I don't like "range is going hot" at anytime - means too many things outside of USPSA. I don't see the need to do so in between shooters. If you have to remind someone every 2.5 minutes to put shooting glasses on - they probably shouldn't be on the range at all. For shooters that don't want to hear anything in between - it honors that. Warnings and other things at times maybe required, but that is case by case and if it affects your routine - I'm sorry, but your routine is too uptight. That being said, if it affects you, no problem, ask to be unloaded and I'll drop you back. It's simple.

The command is Make Ready. Anything short of that and it's going to be a DQ, you should have asked the question - "Did you say Make Ready?" I do regularly. Double Plugging - I don't have a choice.

While I try to avoid people that think matches are not about the shooters but about the ROs proving how good they are - you're going to run into those people occasionally.

[bikerburgess]

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

If nothing other than the official range commands are to be spoken by the RO how would they Specify a safe direction as stated in the rules?

Not every course of fire has a box to start in or even a exact position to start from, many stages have you facing right on the 180 at the start. if a competitor has presented them selves to the RO as being ready to "make ready" and they are not where the RO wants them to be or are facing a direction the RO feel is not safe then they need to be able to communicate that to the shooter prior to issuing the "make ready" command.

I also disagree with the notion that once you issue "Make Ready" the commands as written in the rule book are the only things a RO CAN or SHOULD say. If as a RO the only commands I can give are the ones in the book then there will be some fun arbitration's. say we have a facing up range start and the shooter has "made ready" but assumes a position other than facing up range do you issue ,Stop then UlSC? there is no command for "face up range please" or "assume the start position"

there are innumerable other things that can come up on a stage before during or after a shooter attempts a course of fire that the RO is responsible for that the rule book could never cover all of them and create a lexicon of approved verbiage for.

The Shooter is only responsible for knowing, understanding and following the commands in the rule book. they however should not assume that whatever they hear is whatever command they are expecting to hear next.

[ac4wordplay]

8.3.1 "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

If nothing other than the official range commands are to be spoken by the RO how would they Specify a safe direction as stated in the rules?

Not every course of fire has a box to start in or even a exact position to start from, many stages have you facing right on the 180 at the start. if a competitor has presented them selves to the RO as being ready to "make ready" and they are not where the RO wants them to be or are facing a direction the RO feel is not safe then they need to be able to communicate that to the shooter prior to issuing the "make ready" command.

I also disagree with the notion that once you issue "Make Ready" the commands as written in the rule book are the only things a RO CAN or SHOULD say. If as a RO the only commands I can give are the ones in the book then there will be some fun arbitration's. say we have a facing up range start and the shooter has "made ready" but assumes a position other than facing up range do you issue ,Stop then UlSC? there is no command for "face up range please" or "assume the start position"

there are innumerable other things that can come up on a stage before during or after a shooter attempts a course of fire that the RO is responsible for that the rule book could never cover all of them and create a lexicon of approved verbiage for.

The Shooter is only responsible for knowing, understanding and following the commands in the rule book. they however should not assume that whatever they hear is whatever command they are expecting to hear next.

Well stated!

[Shawn Knight]

That is kind of my point. I don’t want to say things like "step into the box". I had a shooter (new) standing behind me waiting for me to say that. I motioned for him to step into "the box" and he proceeded to step in and draw his gun. I never said a word but I also didn't want to open with "Make Ready" to someone essentially standing behind me either. I would rather them know the starting or "Make Ready" "location" I don't want to say position as that could mean facing up-range or something else. At what point do we make the shooter responsible for something like knowing where to stand? How many shooters need to see someone else stand in the same spot before they realize that, “Hey maybe I should go stand where everyone else stands to begin my COF?” The behavior seems to happen more at steel challenge matches where there is a little 3ft X 3ft square on the ground. I just think it seems like it is forbidden to most people to stand in that little box until someone tells you too. That seems wrong. When I work a local match I work with the same squad all day long so they should kind of learn how I do business after the 2nd or 3rd shooter. If I work a big match like a sectional or an area match, the shooters are always different so I can expect to baby some of them and have to repeat the “Start Position” or “Start Location”.

However it doesn’t change the fact that I never speak a word to a shooter that is standing where they are supposed to be or in the correct starting location until I say “Make Ready”. Anything else confuses people. We have a very good New shooter briefing and I know these people have been told what the commands are and some of these people are even ROs(usually new).

Am I saying something wrong or not making myself clear?

[aztecdriver]

That is kind of my point. I don’t want to say things like "step into the box". I had a shooter (new) standing behind me waiting for me to say that. I motioned for him to step into "the box" and he proceeded to step in and draw his gun. I never said a word but I also didn't want to open with "Make Ready" to someone essentially standing behind me either. I would rather them know the starting or "Make Ready" "location" I don't want to say position as that could mean facing up-range or something else. At what point do we make the shooter responsible for something like knowing where to stand? How many shooters need to see someone else stand in the same spot before they realize that, “Hey maybe I should go stand where everyone else stands to begin my COF?” The behavior seems to happen more at steel challenge matches where there is a little 3ft X 3ft square on the ground. I just think it seems like it is forbidden to most people to stand in that little box until someone tells you too. That seems wrong. When I work a local match I work with the same squad all day long so they should kind of learn how I do business after the 2nd or 3rd shooter. If I work a big match like a sectional or an area match, the shooters are always different so I can expect to baby some of them and have to repeat the “Start Position” or “Start Location”.

However it doesn’t change the fact that I never speak a word to a shooter that is standing where they are supposed to be or in the correct starting location until I say “Make Ready”. Anything else confuses people. We have a very good New shooter briefing and I know these people have been told what the commands are and some of these people are even ROs(usually new).

Am I saying something wrong or not making myself clear?

No, you're not wrong. See, I look at this as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. New people do dumb things. It's uncomfortable, and includes a bit of stage freight. My first time wasn't so long ago. Still, you have to deal with those that will do dumb things and those that won't - and the ones that won't - well, they get pissy when you treat them like a newbie.

It's kinda like how you explain to people about guns. I often get "What kind of gun do you shoot in competition". I respond, "It's a custom built 2011. Do you know what a 2011 is?" Now, that person maybe just as attuned to the firearms world as I am. They may know -- "Of course I do, do you think you are that much smarter than me". Or I could just keep talking about the features of the 2011, and then they can stare at me with the glazed look of not quite wanting to show they don't have a clue what I am talking about, but don't want to burst their ego. I get the same thing when I'm talking about planes. Either they know what an Aztec is (hence the reason I drive one) or they don't. If I start explaining it's a 6 seat twin that was made by Piper, I either get "I know what an Aztec is" or I get "Oh really, is that like a Cessna?" Too much, too little. Where does one go...

The truth is we can banter this all the way about, don't say a word - you have to give warnings... Whatever. The real answer is, do what you feel is appropriate to maintain control of the range without being a toolbag... but the shooter owns what happens with the gun, and just because you say something about something - if you didn't issue the command - it's a walk for ice cream.

In other words, you are perfectly clear - and the problem isn't as clear cut as a rule.

Edited June 20, 2012 by aztecdriver

[sperman]

Are you saying that the proper range commands are the ONLY thing the RO should be allowed to say at all, ever?

If the shooter is standing at the start position and is clearly ready to rock and roll, then yes, the only thing he should here from the RO is Make Ready.

I disagree with your opinion, and it doesn't appear to be supported by the rulebook, so it appears to just be a personal preference. Sometimes we get our personal preferences satisfied, sometimes not. Adapt and succeed. I personally will do just fine if the RO says any other thing before beginning the official range commands with 'make ready'.

Yes, it is my personal preference to do everything I can to make sure the shooter completes the course of fire safely. If the shooter draws his gun when I yell "Range is going hot" then I have failed the shooter. Yes, it is his responsibility not to draw his gun until he he hears "Make Ready" but if I have in any way created a situation where he could perform an unsafe action, I have failed as an RO.

Edited June 20, 2012 by sperman

[DyNo!]

I frustrate the hell out of a lot of RO's when I do this.

But when I hear make ready - I turn around, say "make ready" - then make ready after a second command or nod.

If you can send someone home over this - it's worth the extra 6 seconds at a match to do it on every stage...

[Shawn Knight]

I frustrate the hell out of a lot of RO's when I do this.

But when I hear make ready - I turn around, say "make ready" - then make ready after a second command or nod.

If you can send someone home over this - it's worth the extra 6 seconds at a match to do it on every stage...

I would love to have that!!! At least would know they heard what I said.

@Aztec

Thanks! My wife says I need to be a little bit more accommodating to the stage fright shooters.

[motosapiens]

Yes, it is my personal preference to do everything I can to make sure the shooter completes the course of fire safely. If the shooter draws his gun when I yell "Range is going hot" then I have failed the shooter. Yes, it is his responsibility not to draw his gun until he he hears "Make Ready" but if I have in any way created a situation where he could perform an unsafe action, I have failed as an RO.

well Scott, that seems like a good helpful constructive attitude, but I think at some point shooters have to own up to their own actions. If they are anticipating the next words out of your mouth, and take action at the first syllable based on what they are hoping to hear, they are bound to run into problems eventually, and I won't take it personally if they dq themselves on my stage. As a fairly junior RO tho, I will take your words to heart and keep in mind that everyone will have more fun if I do my part to help shooters avoid dq-ing themselves. I look forward to shooting with you someday.

-mark

Edited June 21, 2012 by motosapiens

[bikerburgess]

I regularly ask the RO if he said make ready, If I'm not 100% sure I ask. It's my responsibility to be sure if I'm wrong I go home, I have never had an RO even look at me funny for double checking.

Mike

[ac4wordplay]

Mike,

You mean you haven't noticed me roll my eyes?!

With how loud and articulate I try to make my "make ready", how can you not be sure and need to ask?!

Just playing, you know I do it too sometimes. It's the safe thing to do.

Best,

Alex

[sperman]

Yes, it is my personal preference to do everything I can to make sure the shooter completes the course of fire safely. If the shooter draws his gun when I yell "Range is going hot" then I have failed the shooter. Yes, it is his responsibility not to draw his gun until he he hears "Make Ready" but if I have in any way created a situation where he could perform an unsafe action, I have failed as an RO.

well Scott, that seems like a good helpful constructive attitude, but I think at some point shooters have to own up to their own actions. If they are anticipating the next words out of your mouth, and take action at the first syllable based on what they are hoping to hear, they are bound to run into problems eventually, and I won't take it personally if they dq themselves on my stage. As a fairly junior RO tho, I will take your words to heart and keep in mind that everyone will have more fun if I do my part to help shooters avoid dq-ing themselves. I look forward to shooting with you someday.

-mark

If I ever make it out to Idaho, I'll look you up.

[deacon12224]

All of this can be resolved bu just using a little common sense. If the shooter is at the starting position and the RO is standing behind him/her, the RO needs to be careful what is said. Until that time, say what you need to say to run the COF effectively. The Range Officer Creed says, "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals..." Therefore, it is our duty to take steps to make sure that we do nothing to place a competitor in a position where he/she might receive a DQ even if it is technically his/her responsibility. ROs should be there to help not just enforce the rules.

[LPatterson]

Did you bring it to the attention of the RO that he used the incorrect commands? That is exactly why we have them. At a level 1 event, I would have argued, anything higher than level 1 and it shouldn't happen. Personally, because of listless tapers and brassers at level 1, I will put a hand on the shoulder of my on deck shooter and clear the range. Not a good habit, but it works.

Putting your hands on someone you are not married to or going out with is never a good idea. If that person turns around and slugged you what would you say after possibly getting up off the ground. OUCH. My exception would be after I see the hole in the end of the barrel.

[BSeevers]

All of this can be resolved bu just using a little common sense. If the shooter is at the starting position and the RO is standing behind him/her, the RO needs to be careful what is said. Until that time, say what you need to say to run the COF effectively. The Range Officer Creed says, "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals..." Therefore, it is our duty to take steps to make sure that we do nothing to place a competitor in a position where he/she might receive a DQ even if it is technically his/her responsibility. ROs should be there to help not just enforce the rules.

I like common sense.

I believe all RO's should not talk, joke,chitchat or issue non standard range commands at the beginning of the course (here's some common sense including the time right before "Make Ready" As said many times before any other statements might be confused by the shooter. It is also distracting the shooter and affecting the match results(Besides safety issues the absolute worst thing an official can do.) Some people are standing in the box relaxing, getting in the zone, rehearsing the course etc.......

I know that a statement "Do you know Betty" might sound a lot like "Make Ready" to a double muffed shooter with other bays noise but what about If you use the phrase "make ready" in a sentence and that's all they hear? DQ, Shooters fault but a possiblity that you were part of it, Simple, Don't do it.

Hey you can talk to me about anything after "Range is clear" and that is the appropriate time but that's when I see those "chatty" RO's run to score T1

[Cy Soto]

Putting your hands on someone you are not married to or going out with is never a good idea. If that person turns around and slugged you what would you say after possibly getting up off the ground. OUCH. My exception would be after I see the hole in the end of the barrel.

I honestly believe that most rational people will be able to differentiate between a person who is laying hands on you in a threatening/offensive manner and another who is trying to get your attention.

[LPatterson]

I think there have been a lot of good discussions along with some P & M and some character attacks but it is like our Congress, they can't agree on anything if it isn't from their party. We really do need to be a professional as we can because eventually we are going to have a shooter who does not think or act as we do. What must the average non-RO shooter think after reading that a bunch of RO, CRO and RM's can't agree on the proper way to run a range. I think it is time to step back and forget the way we want to do things and start trying to live and do things by the RO creed.

Or maybe do on to others as you would have them do unto you.