Harmon Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 i have noticed here at the local level, there are some clubs i enjoy shooting at, and there are some i dont really care to go shoot...and i started to think about who sets the match up. most of the painful courses are set up by B class or better Open class shooters... the courses i have more fun with are set up/designed by limited shooters... something about an array of targets surrounded by no shoots with a foot-fault line forcing you to engage them from 35 yards i dont like... then again its nice to have one stage thats a challenge, but 4 painful stages? I guess its all part of the game, but some of these guys need to go back to course design school....these local matches aint the nationals.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 C'mon Harmon, its all good for you We used to shoot alot more stages locally that used the "classic" target too, and it all just makes you a better shooter than folks who don't get to shoot the harder stuff or stages with mover's and props. We're lucky here to have some national level (o.k., maybe just Area 4 level) course designers. Take advantage of them. Shooting this Sunday? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 If you shoot them all the time then go to a big match those stages look easy. I started at a club that shot lots of steel in every stage. Now steel is no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Ahhhh....yes. As you progress you will begin to like those stages more and more. Why you ask? Because you know there are a lot of shooters who are shaking in their boots because they don't have the confidence. It really starts to seperate the classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 HG, I got your back. Match designers need to know their customers. I think stages ought to be a bit a challenge to the shooters at the club. That will bring the shooter's skill level up as they progress. But, the stages shouldn't be too tough on the new shooters (and the Production shooters). The fun factor needs to outway the frustration factor. Some match directors like to think they are keeping it tough on the good shooters at the club...they need not bother. The good shooters will handle whatever comes their way. They can always shoot faster...or less points down. (Damn I was rambling...I got to quit answering the phone and type. I hope some of that made sense.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Ahhhh....yes. As you progress you will begin to like those stages more and more. Why you ask? Because you know there are a lot of shooters who are shaking in their boots because they don't have the confidence. It really starts to seperate the classes. Amen to that. It makes people learn to shoot, and gets rid of the C-B class spray and pray mentality, I love those kind of courses as long as the average C class shooter can make all the shoots if they take enough time. Zebra targets at 35 yards are a bit rediculous but surounding full tarets with no shoots is a fine idea. I would rather have "nationals" type stages than cake stages any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 al, i actually like your matches... the match in Oakwood was mean...it would be nasty even for the B open shooters who set it up.. i can say that shooting these pain in the rear stages has made me a better shooter..going to the dentist will give you a better smile,, but neither is fun. just when you think it wont happen, it will pop up in our local matches..., Al capizzo and phil terry set up some of the BEST matches i have shot. from what i read, Phil also designs some really cool A4 stages. BTW i think the name of the stage that really got this thing started was "Production Gun Spankin" and the next most difficult was " STI's Revenge" its all fun..and i find if its hard for me, its probably hard for the other guys as well. C class production is about to be history....i get some more classifiers shot(the whole purpose of me going to the match in Oakwood was the classifier) and i will Hopefully get Outta C B is where i want to be..haha funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 I agree with flex there is a HAPPY MEDIUM shooting a limited gun i don't really want to try those zebras at 35 yards and i don't want movers that move the speed of light. BuT i do want a challenge and don't want to be frustrated when shooting production, i shoot limited now but not sure how long and WOULD like to see production shooters become more skilled and populated. as for my abiliity i'm a B class shooter going on Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 We have the opposite problem at our club. The open class shooters like wide open target at 7 yards, and 32 rounds COR's from one static possition. HOSER MANIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Hmmm...I shoot open and my stages are some of the most enjoyable to be found. Then again, I design stages for the majority of shooters and I try to incorporate several skill sets into each stage. It doesn't matter what the stage designer shoots, good course design is good for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Cutter Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 a nice stage design should offer several ways for the shooter to take down the course of fire. i really don't care much for a stage with all paper targets. i like a stage with the right mix of paper, steel and moving targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 IMHO (and this is purely opinion), I believe the worst stage designers are approximately B-class (some of the best are B-class too). No fault of their own-- they're enthusiastic and have lots of ideas, but they just have this habit of doing things to excess. Sometimes the problem is overestimating the abilities of the best shooters and thus throwing in many hard shots, movers and other trickery in order to 'separate the good shooters'. What you get is Z-combos at 35 yards or seas of no-shoots... Don't bother. The good shooters will always separate themselves on efficiency and points, no matter the stage. Sometimes the problem is they want 'Fun'. Defined as 'targets I can shoot fast with little risk", and you get hoser-city. Sometimes it's "I want to make shooters do.." and it's a conga line running the stage. Instead, set up a stage and let people have at it however they think best. Check out some of the field-course classifiers for target distances and hard-cover/no-shoots. Consider those 'normal'. Ask yourself if your matches are mostly harder or easier shots than those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 Again, not busting anybody's chops but.... Try volunteering to set up a stage or two at the next match. I've yet to meet a match director who would turn down help setting up, and then you can set up whatever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 Isn't it true that no matter what you do in a stage, some one will complain I've set up multiple stages in a match and heard all of: too close/too far; too much movement/too little movement; too technical/not technical enough ... sometimes both variants on the same stage from different people! Since everyone is shooting the same stages, things work out just as hard/easy for everyone and everyone has exactly the same motivation to complain Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 I try not to look at that as complaining. I hope to see it as feedback from the customers. Here is the feedback that opened this thread: i have noticed here at the local level, there are some clubs i enjoy shooting at, and there are some i dont really care to go shoot...and i started to think about who sets the match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 I try not to look at that as complaining. I hope to see it as feedback from the customers.Here is the feedback that opened this thread: i have noticed here at the local level, there are some clubs i enjoy shooting at, and there are some i dont really care to go shoot...and i started to think about who sets the match up. It is hard for a club and/or MD to change it's reputation once it gets one. Prevention is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 Well said and good points Flex. At the club I help run we do keep an "open" mind and try and listen to our "customers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 The main thing I try and do (not always successfully) is to give options when setting up a stage. Mostly I want "shoot 'em as the become visible" targets, that way shooters of different skill levels can decide whats best for them. Stop here and engage this array or squirt them as I run by. This makes everyone happy, or no one. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassy knoll Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 we had a match on Sunday with one stage that had 30 yd classic targets with penalty targets blocking 50% of the target, as course designer I do get comments that people think I am trying to make it too hard with a stage like that but I also had other stages where the targets were 5 yd away and shooters also missed them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Not commenting on your stage design, but sometimes the easiest way to make shooters miss is to put a wide open target at 3 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Hmmm... 30 yards with half the target blocked? Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 I'm all for challenging stages, but as others have mentioned, know your audience. The club that I shoot primarily at draws tons of newbies that unfortunately 70% of which don't make it a second time. Now part of this is, I believe, is a slight intimidation factor of seeing full house Open guns going and them showing up with stock guns and nylon holsters. However, we've been actively addressing this aspect of our new members and it's slowly working. The largest factor though is the stage design. The leadership of the club is in a bit of a quandry in that they have 2-3 folks that will build stages every month, but they build some unrealistic and frankly overly difficult stages. One of the designers in particular has been asked to ratchet it down a notch or four. His logic is to make it competitive for the better shooters. What he's not realizing is that it is killing the new shooters, which are the future of the sport. The quandry is that the easy solution is to have those folks not build stages, which unfortunately means the leadership are building the stages. As two of the primary guys have been doing it for 15 years, they have done their time for IPSC at this club. So, my point. While having difficult stages are nice, flat out killer stages are another. Partially covered or no-shoots at 25+ yards is a little unrealisitc for a D-low B shooter to get on a regular basis. I'm not advocating dumbing anything down, but if we're going to have a classification system, stage designers need to acknowledge that there is a spectrum to consider. A good way of making stages more difficult without killing folks, is to have several ways of engaging it. That doesn't mean a wall with six ports and barrels obscuring targets and partial, multiple exposures. Rather, field courses that offer 3-5 ways of doing things (see 2004 Georgia State match). Another is to make things really simple, encouraging speed and watch the disaster ensue. A good example of this was, "Ring of Fire" at the first Infinity Open. 8 full Targets and one box, two (may have been three) strings. Major disaster factor. Just my two Lincolns. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Benzick Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 At my main club every member is scheduled to design and build two stages during the season. This way there is feedback from every level of shooter in all divisions. The more experienced shooters will assist the newer stage builders to make sure the stages are USPSA legal but they try to maintain the intentions of the stage designer. Personally, I like to design a challenging stage that has at least one problem or alternate way of shooting that will challenge the GM. However, there will be plenty of easier points available for the newer shooters if they just take their time and shoot accurately. If you put too much up close hoser stuff in your match you are doing the new shooters a disservice. They need to learn it's accuracey and then speed. David Benzick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 David Benzick Posted on Jul 26 2004, 10:03 PM At my main club every member is scheduled to design and build two stages during the season. This is a great idea which will be implemented as of NOW! I posted this in another thread - the quest for the perfect CoF/Shoot will continue: in the quest for the perfect shoot/stage - perfect challange, many options, easy to set up, all the mods and cons, nobody full score and everybody with a smile on their face while keeping with all rules and safety......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Long range, short range, pop, move, hop, stand still, in the box, over the hill, down the road, running gunning, hosing or standing still, the worst day I ever had at the range beat the hell out of any day I ever had at work. Be safe, have fun...shoot to win geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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