9mm vs. Major in Single Stack in USPSA

[Strick]

Compare the results of the top shooters in Production to the top shooters in SSTK. I have and minor doesn't suck as bad as some seem to think.

[spearogun]

I pulled out the SS 9mm today and worked up a load for it. I really like the gun. Its a lot more fun to shoot than polymer guns or 45s. My plan is to shoot IDPA ESP and USPSA Single Stack with it. I just have to stop going to the beach on weekends and actually go to a match again.

[ktm300]

The rules still require 8 round neutrality so stages are not "leaning" toward ten rounds. It is just sometimes easier to break a stage down in such a manner that

the two extra rounds are helpful, and that's when single stack minor pays off.

It may mean shooting ten, reloading, and shooting six. It still may be faster to save the reload for after ten rounds instead of eight.

Notes:

H5 only available from one spot.

H9 not available until very close to wall.

H11 not available until 2 or 3 steps after the spot you shoot H9-H10

H12 is available from the spot you shoot H9-H10 but it's kind of far off

Start is with gun unloaded on table (TTTT)

8 round neutrality is there but as long as you can see the target from more than one position you can have as many as you want visable from one spot.

The stage we shot Saturday was a good example. Unloaded table start so the major gun starts with 8, minor starts with 10. The stage met the 8 round rule as several

of the targets were available from multiple places.

10 round stage plan:

H1, H2, move in and shoot H4, H3

step around the wall while reloading then H5, H6, H7, H8 At best this is 1.5 steps.

Reload while moving to H9 - H10 two steps H11, move in to shoot H12 & two steel

Reload while moving to shoot H14, two steel, then H13

8 round stage plan???:

H1, H2, move in and shoot H4, H3

step around the wall while doing a slide lock reload then H5, H6, H7, H8 At best this is 1.5 steps.

Slide lock Reload while moving to H9 - H10 (H9 not visable until you were very close) take H12 then H11

Slide lock reload take 2 steel then H14, 2 steel, H13

This plan has you doing the same number of reloads but all three are from slide lock, two of those slide lock reloads in less than 2 steps.

I am sure there is a better 8 round plan but I didn't walk it thinking about 8 rounds. Toss in a makeup shot anywhere in that 8 round plan and you are standing and reloading. With the 10 round gun you have at least one makeup available in every set of shots.

I am seeing a lot of stages like this where the guy that designed it was thinking 10 round reloads, not 8. With so many production shooters and not as many SS shooters this is getting to be pretty common. Limited shooters tend to think in 19's or 20's for reload spots so that is not much help for people that have to think in 8's but it works for people that think in 10's most of the time.

Edited June 27, 2012 by ktm300

[twodownzero]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that as long as 8 round neutrality is still the rule, the extra two rounds won't have the advantage it could otherwise have.

I do shoot SS/Minor and I enjoy it, but I also think that it's usually a disadvantage.

[co-exprs]

The thing that most people don't realize is that it takes many more rounds down range to learn how to hit targets than to learn how to manage recoil. I teach a practical marksmanship class and most of my students have got recoil management figured out by the end of a day class. A few range trips later and it's into muscle memory. Hitting targets fast and accurately takes many thousands of rounds down range. Shooting minor won't make you a better shot and points is the only thing which possitively impacts your score. Believe it or not shooting minor is actually an experts game. My GM coach sometimes shoots Limited minor, just as a practice challenge. When he feels like he's getting sloppy, he breaks out the 9mm to force himself to shoot his points. The extra two rounds is often usefull, but just doesn't make up for the scoring handicap. Some shoot minor because they prefer the lighter recoil of 9mm, but 45acp gets a bad rap for being heavy recoil and is actually a fairly tame round. Especially with 230gr and a fast powder at major PF. My 13yr old daughter weighs about 105lbs and shoots my 45 without hessitation and with surprisingly good muzzle control. I've simply trained her to know which muscles to turn on. She's not ready to compete with it, but give her another year or two to not be a brain damaged teenage girl and I'll let her choose her division. If it's a matter of cost, then I'd say your in the wrong division. A well put together production gun is considerably cheaper than any decent 1911 and production class doesn't offer the scoring handicap. If that's all you got, then by all means get our there and shoot. If you have the choice though and don't have some physical condition requiring you to shoot minor PF then go major.

[Bshooter]

I shot last years Monster Match here in Florida with a SS 38 super. Eight stages and over 400 rounds. Can you say reload, reload, reload. I carried 7 mags on my belt and one in my back pocket to start with. Needless to say there were not many SS shooters let alone minor. However, I did walk away with High Overall Single Stack. It was fun and I may shoot it again SS Minor.

[ktm300]

Shooting minor won't make you a better shot

Less recoil may not make you a better shot but I think it helps me call my shots. I practice a lot with a 22 and it is so simple to call shots with, the 9 is a little harder, and the .40 is quite a bit harder than the 9. The .45 and the .40 are pretty close, I think the .45 is, if anything, a little easer to call the shots with than the .40. I may just need to get some more training on recoil control.

When he feels like he's getting sloppy, he breaks out the 9mm to force himself to shoot his points.

Major or Minor you need to get most all of the points to do well. If I can save 1 second on a 25 second 160 point stage I can drop +- 5 more points and be around the same hit factor.

If it's a matter of cost, then I'd say your in the wrong division.

When I buy a good 1911 used and go to sell it I hardly ever lose anything. So the cost of the gun is not part of my thought process when I choose to shoot a division. The cost of bullets is. The cost delta from a 124g 9mm to a 180g .40 (35%) or 230g .45 (53%) is quite a bit. So if I shoot the same amount of money in my 9mm I get a lot more practice time. If I shoot the same number of bullets I save cash. I enjoy shooting a 1911 because I love the trigger. Can't get that in a production gun.

I know I can shoot the stage I posted above quite a bit faster with the minor gun than the major gun. How much faster I am not sure as I did not shoot it both ways, but I am sure it would be at least a couple of seconds.

I think everyone should shoot what they think is the best for them. For me it looks like the 9mm is a better choice now YMMV.

[ktm300]

I shot last years Monster Match here in Florida with a SS 38 super. Eight stages and over 400 rounds. Can you say reload, reload, reload. I carried 7 mags on my belt and one in my back pocket to start with. Needless to say there were not many SS shooters let alone minor. However, I did walk away with High Overall Single Stack. It was fun and I may shoot it again SS Minor.

I must be sick as that sounds like a lot of fun.

[co-exprs]

If your avatar is correct and you race enduros with a KTM300, then you have more than enough strength in those popeye forarms to manage recoil with the best of them. Ask me how I know. Very few people can out trigger a 1911 slide in any caliber, so we are only talking about differences in seeing your sights. It's true that your brain has to learn how to see the sights during the entire motion of recoil, but the slide doesn't move any faster with 45 than with 9mm. At least not enough so to make a difference in your ability to see them. So we are only talking about muzzle climb. A good 1911 jockey will only experience a very slight difference in muzzle climb between the two platforms. Teaching your brain to see and track your front sight is the hard part. Once it knows what to look for, the pattern is set. If you can track the front sight on your 9mm, you can track the front sight on a 45. You might need to work a little harder to manage the recoil induced front sight movement, but if you race KTM's, you are more than equiped for the task. I will give you this though. I really do feel that shooting minor powerfactor is an experts game, in any division. If you've been running your 9mm in SS for a while and are accustomed to getting your hits and points and you switched to Major now, within a couple months you would be crushing every other single stacker in your area in both speed and points.

[Bshooter]

ktm, that was the most fun I have ever had at a major match. One stage consisted of about 50 shots cover about 70 yards. When you reached the end of the shooting area, you had 45 yards shots to finish. It is evil yet a barrel of fun. If you shoot in a costume, you are eligible to win a prize. I believe the RO staff selects the costume shooter.

[waynes_world_45]

Lots of 8 round arrays, so table starts makes things dicey...you need a plan and back-up plan

[waynes_world_45]

If your avatar is correct and you race enduros with a KTM300, then you have more than enough strength in those popeye forarms to manage recoil with the best of them. Ask me how I know. Very few people can out trigger a 1911 slide in any caliber, so we are only talking about differences in seeing your sights. It's true that your brain has to learn how to see the sights during the entire motion of recoil, but the slide doesn't move any faster with 45 than with 9mm. At least not enough so to make a difference in your ability to see them. So we are only talking about muzzle climb. A good 1911 jockey will only experience a very slight difference in muzzle climb between the two platforms. Teaching your brain to see and track your front sight is the hard part. Once it knows what to look for, the pattern is set. If you can track the front sight on your 9mm, you can track the front sight on a 45. You might need to work a little harder to manage the recoil induced front sight movement, but if you race KTM's, you are more than equiped for the task. I will give you this though. I really do feel that shooting minor powerfactor is an experts game, in any division. If you've been running your 9mm in SS for a while and are accustomed to getting your hits and points and you switched to Major now, within a couple months you would be crushing every other single stacker in your area in both speed and points.

This is a great post

[mikeg1005]

Robbie won A2 SS with minor. Julie won SS Nationals Woman this year with minor, Sara won it last year with a minor gun.

Rob wins everything, its really kinda hard to compare him to the rest of the shooting population.

Julie took 1st lady... at 37th overall. The 36 shooters above her... shot major.

Out of the 15 or so major matches listed on the USPSA website for 2012.

People shooting single stack minor only made the top 5 in the division 8 times. The other 67 shooters who places 1st-5th at these majors, all shot major pf. And of those 8 shooting minor, only 1 or 2 made it into the top 3.

I have no problem breaking down stages into 8 shot arrays and doing it efficiently and having to do one less reload on "some" stages is NOT worth having minor scoring on ALL stages. Shooting major I average 92-93% of the stage points. I would not be able to shoot at the same pace I do now, and still get 92-93% shooting minor.

Learn how to break a stage down properly and you won't need to do 10 round arrays.

Learn how to shoot targets shot for shot and you won't need extra rounds.

And for the occasional stage where 10rds might be an advantage, minor scoring for the entire match is not.

Thats just my opinion on it, but then again "I don't get out to many matches".

Mike.

Edited June 29, 2012 by mikeg1005

[twodownzero]

Mike, you're being completely unreasonable. Shooting minor and major in SS are different games, and you should not convince yourself by comparing the numbers with people who choose to shoot minor, if for no other reason than small sample size (there aren't enough data points in SS/minor to really get a good conclusion). Compare the final results for Production and I suspect you'll find that the difference is smaller than you think.

Yes, many shoot major and want the scoring advantage. But it's far less true in Single Stack, where the 2 extra rounds can and do produce an advantage on some stages. This is drastically unlike Limited, where any capacity advantage couldn't really be exploited (because most stages only have one reload).

Single Stack is won and lost on stage breakdown and reloading. Both of those factors favor minor heavily, whereas scoring cuts the other way. Neither you nor anyone else can say that one always outweighs the other. If someone who isn't can get 3rd place at the Nationals with a minor gun, then you're just deluding yourself to say that it's not competitive. That shooter proved that it can be competitive at the highest level in our sport. Dismissing his performance doesn't negate the fact that it happened.

[Carmoney]

Learn how to break a stage down properly and you won't need to do 10 round arrays.

Learn how to shoot targets shot for shot and you won't need extra rounds.

And for the occasional stage where 10rds might be an advantage, minor scoring for the entire match is not.

Thats just my opinion on it, but then again "I don't get out to many matches".

Mike.

Mike, my comment was in response to your post stating that you have never seen a stage where 10+1 minor was an advantage over 8+1 major. You don't really mean that, right? You were exaggerating a little to make your point?

I generally agree that shooting major in SS is the way to go (particularly at the club level.) But there are exceptions, and as I mentioned earlier, I think Area 5 was one of them. For whatever reason, there were a number of stages where I was able to shave significant time by having ten rounds in the mag. Tom Nichols and Dave Schroeder were shooting SS major on my squad, and I'm pretty sure they would agree that minor worked out better. I think if you had shot the match, you would understand what I mean. If Ted Puente hadn't blown us all out, I would have finished around 97% or thereabouts--which isn't bad for me, considering that I am primarily a revolver guy.

Anyway, I think Area 3 will be the same deal. Tell you what--just for kicks--sign up for Area 3 and squad on Sat/SunPM with Dave Williams and me. I'll shoot SS minor, you shoot SS major, and we'll see how it comes out! From the looks of recent match results, it looks like you and I are pretty evenly matched in SS--(actually, you beat me at the SS Nationals this year and your classifier percentage is a little higher). Maybe even a little friendly wager perhaps?

[mikeg1005]

Mike, my comment was in response to your post stating that you have never seen a stage where 10+1 minor was an advantage over 8+1 major. You don't really mean that, right? You were exaggerating a little to make your point?

I generally agree that shooting major in SS is the way to go (particularly at the club level.) But there are exceptions, and as I mentioned earlier, I think Area 5 was one of them. For whatever reason, there were a number of stages where I was able to shave significant time by having ten rounds in the mag. Tom Nichols and Dave Schroeder were shooting SS major on my squad, and I'm pretty sure they would agree that minor worked out better. I think if you had shot the match, you would understand what I mean. If Ted Puente hadn't blown us all out, I would have finished around 97% or thereabouts--which isn't bad for me, considering that I am primarily a revolver guy.

Anyway, I think Area 3 will be the same deal. Tell you what--just for kicks--sign up for Area 3 and squad on Sat/SunPM with Dave Williams and me. I'll shoot SS minor, you shoot SS major, and we'll see how it comes out! From the looks of recent match results, it looks like you and I are pretty evenly matched in SS--(actually, you beat me at the SS Nationals this year and your classifier percentage is a little higher). Maybe even a little friendly wager perhaps?

I think you initially misread my post. I agree with you... there are stages were having a 10rd mag would be a slight time advantage vs. having an 8rd mag, but for the match as a whole, it would not be(in my honest opinion) worth the minor scoring.

I shot limited in area 5, but I shot it with a squad of SS shooters. I will admit there were stages where 10rd mags would have saved time (roll right/roll left come to mind) but you will also agree that Area 5 had probably 75% of the targets either at long distance, or with hardcover/no-shoots on them. Targets where getting a charlie was very likely unless you wanted to push your luck on the A zone. I kind of wish I shot it SS, it looked like it would have been a lot of fun to have to break those stages down to 8 round arrays.

I think the reason that SS minor works so well for you is because you are a VERY, VERY accurate shooter. Looks like you only dropped 1B, 50C, and 1D over the whole match... I am beyond impressed because there were a lot of tight shots. The two guys ahead of you aren't more than 3% up... but they hit almost twice as many B/C/D as you. Do you think the amount of time you'd have lost shooting major would really be significant enough with how accurate you can shoot?

I think what it comes down to two things.

1.) Can you shoot accurately enough to offset minor scoring.

2.) Will 10rd mags save you enough time to offset minor scoring.

If you can do those two items(which it seems like you can) then minor pf is more competitive for you, but if someone can't them major is the way to go.

Area 3? hmmm... I'm shooting Limited for the IN Sectional the following weekend, but now you got me thinking(except its 610 miles from me ) . I'm always up for a little friendly wager... hmmmmm.

Mike.

[Carmoney]

I hope it works out. I think it would be fun to analyze each stage using both the major and minor options, and see how it all shakes out in the end!

[frag316]

Well, I did shoot it in SS major, and there were more stages than not where I wished I'd had 10 rounds.

[Ssanders224]

I shoot SS minor. Why? Because the only SS I have is a 9mm Trojan.

I love it. Production is by FAR the largest division at our local matches, so many times I feel like stages are a little biased toward the 10 round guys.

Alot of guys on my normal squads shoot production, so it lets me talk through/break down the stages with them.

I probably dont shoot it like SS should be shot, and it would probably bite me at bigger matches, but I can run the 9mm fast. I drop points sometimes sure, but it hasnt been enough to affect my SS finishes in local matches ( So few SS shooters ).

I enjoy shooting 9mm out of a 1911. Do I think its viable in higher levels of competition? Not really.

[Ssanders224]

Compare the results of the top shooters in Production to the top shooters in SSTK. I have and minor doesn't suck as bad as some seem to think.

This.

I usually end up comparing myself to production shooters after matches.

[BOOST]

I shoot SS minor. Why? Because the only SS I have is a 9mm Trojan.

I love it. Production is by FAR the largest division at our local matches, so many times I feel like stages are a little biased toward the 10 round guys.

Why? Your 9mm SS should be 10rds.

[Ssanders224]

I shoot SS minor. Why? Because the only SS I have is a 9mm Trojan.

I love it. Production is by FAR the largest division at our local matches, so many times I feel like stages are a little biased toward the 10 round guys.

Why? Your 9mm SS should be 10rds.

Sorry, that was my point.

I am favored in the bias by shooting a 10rd minor gun.