Production bump to Open: stuck declaring minor

[Nik Habicht]

Sin-ster,

I think you may be approaching this from the wrong direction. Several have said this was intended to be punitive. Many actions in our rulebook are, but this isn't one of them. It's about scoring.

While you're busy betting dimes to dog-biscuits, let me ask if you have ever scored a match with EZWinScore? I bet you have. You'll likely remember that it assigns points based on PF. If you sign up for Production, it doesn't give a hoot in Hell what your actual PF is (nor would I). It assigns the appropriate scoring for that division.

So let's examine someone who gets swapped from Production to Open and wants to shoot as Major PF. What exactly do we do with the stages already shot as Minor? Are you advocating just giving points to the competitor? Is the stats officer now the "Points Fairy" because someone screwed up their own match and got bumped to Open?

Nah...

Given that in EZW the change is pretty easy, and given that Stats should probably implement any properly issued RM directive, I'm not seeing an issue for procedural reasons. Alphas will still be alphas, Bravos -bravos, etc., and EZW will recalculate the relevant values in a jiffy....

Now, if folks were still regularly scoring matches with calculators.... :devil:

[Nik Habicht]

The points were not availible to the shooter when he shot a stage prior to the bump to Open. Y'all are trying to give them something that is not there.

O.K., but we're not published some weird hybrid of Production/Open scores for that competitor.....

We're calculating the entire match in Open division, and letting the results drop in wherever they go....

When you're RO ing the stage, do you have the scorekeeper call out the power factor of the competitors in any division? Probably not, because knowing the power factor isn't relevant to the job of scoring, unless possibly when overlays come out....

Once the competitor is assigned to open division, all of those stages become open stages. Hence, not awarding major points, to a competitor who has shot major pf ammo on all stages is an arbitrary or punitive decision....

[Nik Habicht]

What is there to "fix"? It ain't broken.

I'm with Mark -- as much as I may be arguing the other side, I don't see that this needs fixing.....

As a competitor in Production, let's say you shoot two Charlies on a target. For that effort you earn 6 points. Later, because you screwed up your own situation (no one else -- you), we're supposed to re-code EWS so that the Good Points Fairy can give you two extra points that you had not previously earned? What's ethical about that?

No recoding necessary. You change the competitor's division, don't you have the option of toggling the power factor? It's been a little while since I've scored the match in EZW...

The current rule is for certain 'fair to the competitor', and more importantly, it's fair to their competition (the ones who did not screw themselves up, and who also will not be visited by the Good Free Points Fairy).

An argument could be made that if you're referring to the other production shooters with the "fair to their competition" statement, that production's competitive equity is assured by the violators move to open. So, the production shooters don't gain or lose anything by an open shooter's PF being adjusted.

Open competitors -- they just got an additional contender in the pool. That contender didn't break any rules in open, how exactly are they disadvantaged by the competitor's declaration of "major" if he's shot major for the whole match?

[Nik Habicht]

The potential administration of such a rule change is debatable, but until someone can present a principled reason for the inequitable treatment in the first place, I simply cannot understand how that is an obstacle.

It's not inequitable -- it's how it's always been. You shoot production, you declare minor. No different than a shooter in another in another division choosing minor -- other than that it's a compound choice instead of two simple choices....

[aztecdriver]

The points were not availible to the shooter when he shot a stage prior to the bump to Open. Y'all are trying to give them something that is not there.

First of all, no stages were shot as "minor" or anything else for that matter. That's what the chrono stage is for, and until we are chronoing every round fired in a match, there is no "points fairy" and every shot a competitor fires is presumed to be at whatever power factor the competitor wishes to declare until we prove otherwise. That's not in question in this thread or anywhere else. In fact, the rampant cheating on that particular point is worthy of its own thread, but that's not the crux of what we're discussing here.

My proposition also is not inventing anything that was not there previous. If the competitor's handgun could not satisfy the requirements for major power factor, then he would not be able to declare Open/Major. The vetting process for determining whether the competitor could satisfy the division requirements for power factor is the same in this scenario as it is everywhere else in our sport--all competitors would have to submit ammo for testing.

Nobody has yet presented a principled reason for a more punitive rule for Production shooters compared to all other divisions. That's the real problem with this rule--not the fact that it'd be a pain to score or that we'd have to assume things that we don't have any method of verifying (the pf of prior-shot stages). Those issues are present any time a competitor is bumped to open from any division. There's no reason to believe that a guy shooting a Glock 35 who gets bumped from Limited-10 to Open for having 11 rounds in his magazine after the start signal is any different than a guy shooting the same Glock 35 who gets the bump to Open for his gun being overweight. Either way, we don't presume that all of the rounds he's shot prior to that instant in the match were actually at something other than his chronoed power factor. The competitor can declare anything he wants, and the proper process for determining whether his equipment meets the power factor requirements is already in the rule book.

We don't need any new rules to fix this. We merely need to eliminate the language that doesn't allow the Production competitor who has been bumped to Open to re-declare Major if his equipment can satisfy those requirements.

The key here is that, theoretically, the same competitor, using identical equipment and violating the same rule (11 rounds after the start signal in L-10 versus Production), could face different sanctions for the exact same rule infraction. That makes no sense and I'm still waiting for someone to defend that particular distinction.

The potential administration of such a rule change is debatable, but until someone can present a principled reason for the inequitable treatment in the first place, I simply cannot understand how that is an obstacle.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a double penalty - it's a single one - bumped to open. The competitor already decided to shoot major PF ammunition in a division that only allows declaration of minor PF. That decision has already been made. The fact that their equipment wasn't legal for that division does not change that decision.

[diehli]

Seems to me that the rationale here is the same rationale for 6.2.5.1, to wit:

[...] Hard enough spanking so that those that do it unintentionally don't do it unintentionally again. [...]

[sperman]

What is there to "fix"? It ain't broken.

I'm with Mark -- as much as I may be arguing the other side, I don't see that this needs fixing.....

How often does this happen? My guess is that it is a very rare occurrence.

The number of shooters shooting Major PF in production has to be fairly small. The number of times those competitors get bumped to open has to be a very low number.

[sperman]

Tim,

actually the only recent change is the printing of an interpretive statement. Production shooters in the past were not able to change their power factor, if they busted division requirements....

I'm pretty sure there was a lengthy discussion when the statement was added to the rulebook, but I can't find it right now.

[mgood]

The number of shooters shooting Major PF in production has to be fairly small.

Probably, but I've done it a few times. My Production pistol is a .40S&W. I don't reload, so I've shot factory ammo and been scored minor.

I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat.

(And when I tried minor PF .40 from AA&A, the gun doesn't run it reliably. Needs a different recoil spring or something. Just not worth the trouble to switch it back and forth between one spring for one ammo for a defensive weapon and a different spring and ammo for a game gun. So it stays Major and maybe I'll get a dedicated Production Division gun one of these days.)

[RIIID]

When someone signs up to shoot Production they are declaring that their ammo will make minor power factor and their gear is Division compliant. You go in knowing you are scored minor that's the Division rule for all shooters no matter if their ammo makes major. When you get bumped to Open you have violated the rules of Production in some way and you were taking advantage of all of the shooters in Production. So now you want to give the shooter more points because their ammo happens to make major after violating the rules for Production.

Here's a situation that could happen under your proposed change, the first stage one goes to at a major match happens to be the chrono. The shooter is shooting Production and his equipment violates the rules but their ammo makes major, they are bumped to Open. Under the rules one can switch guns as long as the gun meets the Division requirements, the shooter borrows or uses his own Open Division gun and equipment. That shooter wins Open Division even though he had violated the rules of another Division, where is the penalty for violating the rules of Production.

My opinion is if you break the Division rules, you can continue to shoot the Match for no score. If you break the rules there has to be a penalty.

Rich

[ChuckS]

--- snip ---

I'm fully sympathetic to the view that we should not reduce the "sting" of shooting Open with a Production gun after a rule violation. But a one-size-fits-all penalty has to be equitable across divisions.

Perhaps it'd be better to force competitors who violate the rules to shoot the match for no score, but that's just not the rule we have, and so my position is that if we're going to have the rule we have, it needs to be fair.

The current rule is unfair and should change.

-- snip ---

If the basis of this discussion is that the rule is unfair, then the only solution is to shoot for no score! If an open shooter does not meet the equipment rules (example: big stick too big), they shoot for no score. Your argument of equity demands that all divisions shoot for no score since an open shooter can't get bumped to open!

Later,

Chuck

[GrumpyOne]

Since production is primarily dominated by the 9mm, with a smattering of other calibers, how many 9mm production shooters do you personally know that would run 165 or higher PF ammo in their production rig, or how many 9mm production shooters do you know who would even have any ammo with a 165 or higher PF? It ain't broke, and even if its bent, it only affects a bare minimum of shooters.....

[Chuck Anderson]

Tim made his own argument on this. Absent a chronograph, the shooters declaration of power factor is definitive. In the case of Production that declaration defaults to Minor. Just because the shooter later ends up making Major, whether through the Chrono station or a change to Open it doesn't change. Take for example the shooter in Limited who thinks his ammo won't quite make it and being a stand up guy declares Minor. He gets to chrono and squeaks out a 165.01. Doesn't change him to Major, even though that's what he is shooting.

There are certain rules there there in large part because of expediency. This is one of them. It's not a judgement call, it's doesn't require a flow chart in the book. If you screw up, you go to Open. If you're already in Open and screw up, you shoot for no score. Fairly short, easy to understand, even if you don't agree with it. It doesn't change into this long drawn out, well if you're shooting Production and you have grip tape in the wrong spot you can shoot L10. If you added an extra round you can shoot Limited. If you're holster is in the wrong spot you can shoot L10, or Limited or Open or...

To be honest this whole thread is a lot about very little. At a major match, level two or up even, the odds of a competitor shooting Major PF ammo in Production are very low. Not saying it won't happen, but that competitor is already not competetive and is likely shooting for fun anyway. If it's a local level one match, who cares? He gets bumped to Open Minor and he learns a valuable lesson that won't likely be repeated. As far as the argument that Production has a different penalty than any other Division, I'll take that one first. It should. Production is the most rule specific Division we have. If you don't mess with the gun, it's not an issue. If you do, you better know the rules. Don't like that, shoot L10. There are a lot of perceived loopholes in Production. If you want to try and exploit them the penalty should be greater.

Second, it's not the only Division this has the possibility of happening with. Take a Single Stack shooter declaring Minor to get 10 rounds. Say he's shooting a .38 Super (actually not an uncommon scenario) and he's running his old Open gun ammo at Major PF because that's what the gun likes. Goes a bit overweight and hits Open. Same situation, same result. He declared Minor, we're not bumping him to Major halfway through a match.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Chuck Anderson

[Sin-ster]

Here's what I think I'm hearing, so correct me if I'm wrong...

The move to Open is a punishment for rules infractions-- by intention, and apparently with popular support.

The punishment is and should be stiffer for Production shooters because of the numerous restrictions on modifications and gear. (Per Chuck.)

The rule as it stands is a matter of convenience to some degree. (Although I'm not convinced that it'd be a major inconvenience to change, in the book and in the scores.)

The situation is so rare that it doesn't really matter.

So I pose the question...

In these rare instances, is the shooter more likely to be breaking the rules on purpose (i.e. trying to cheat), or is he simply a new/"for fun" shooter who just screwed up and made a mistake?

In my experience, and even according to some of the examples/statements listed in the thread (i.e. "never going to be an issue at L2 and above"), it's the latter case. Is it necessary to hammer these folks with a compound penalty (Open AND Minor) for a screw up-- most commonly, I surmise, being 11 rounds in the mag on a stage that calls for an unloaded start. (New shooters are going to be the most prone to this, as they don't even realize the implications...)

I guess the difference is that I see these instances as unfortunate events, and feel sorry for the guys who screw them up. The rules themselves and those that support them the strongest seem to be more concerned with cheating. Bear in mind-- I'm not calling for a situation in which the rules hold everyone's hand and make them feel good about life. There definitely MUST be consequences, and relatively stiff and tangible ones at that, for violating Division-specific rules. But do they need to be so darn harsh?

He's already shot at least one stage under the presumption of Production rules-- most commonly including 10 rounds in the mag of a gun that can hold as many as 17. Prior to that, the shooter had already put himself at a disadvantage of shooting Major PF velocity and weight under the presumption of Minor scoring. After the bump, he's stuck with a gun and gear that's woefully outmatched by that of the competitors in his new Division. Essentially, the guy's match is over. That's a lot of punishment in my book for a mistake on par with leaving your cell phone in the house when you head to work and having to turn around after 5 minutes to retrieve it...

Chuck, your assessment of the "lack of judgement call" definitely rings true here and I agree with the notion 100%. Giving the shooter so many options in where to go after he's violated a Division rule definitely seems to be too generous-- and a possible PITA for the MD/RM. I can aslo see how this Major/Minor/Production/Open issue borders on the same thing.

However, in those cases where it's not a clear cut mistake on the part of the shooter that gets him bumped to Open, we already have a rule in place ("judgement call" and all) to address the issues of cheating-- and it should be pretty clear, based on the experience/competitive level of the shooter, whether or not the infraction was an effort to gain an unfair advantage.

10.6.1

In fact, if the evidence suggests that the competitor is intentionally trying to bend/break the rules for his own benefit, shouldn't this be a required DQ in the first place? Chances are that he's been bumped before for something similar, and is a general PITA anyway...

Admission: I'm arguing rather frivolously here, due in no small part to the fact that I enjoy debates! However, I've seen shooters get bumped to Open and really get down on themselves about it. It can really ruin your day, even if you're just out there for fun-- and more salt in the wound, knowing that you were shooting Major in a Division that recognized the scoring differences, makes it all the worse. I definitely feel for those folks, I don't see how allowing them to receive Major scoring hurts anyone, but I can definitely understand how it might salvage an otherwise ruined match in their minds.

[Sin-ster]

I just remembered something that semi-correlates with the discussion-- especially since I brought 10.6.1 into the conversation, albeit tangentially.

I personally know of an instance in which a shooter intentionally violated Production rules in order to get themselves bumped to Open.

In the process of trying to move up in Class, they put up a Classifier score that would have counted against them and brought their current average down-- something like 1% away from being thrown out, IIRC. Because the entire match is scored as Open if you get bumped, they loaded their starting mag full on the next (and final) stage and blazed through two arrays without a reload-- which the RO caught instantly, of course.

How does this relate to my argument/stance? If anything, it hurts it!

However, it does make me wonder if some type of judgement call isn't NECESSARY in regards to this rule-- or at least in the application of 10.6.1 in association with/the absence of a bump.

IOW-- let actually-Major be scored Major, let actually-Minor be scored Minor, and let the numerous other disadvantages associated with the move stand. That's plenty of punishment IMHO, without any overkill.

At the same time, if a violation took place in an effort to seek a competitive advantage (not so easy to prove in many cases, but quite obvious in others), 10.6.1-- your day is over. That seems to address the issue of a genuine mistake and flagrant cheating more equitably than doubly penalizing someone for what is most commonly a simple screw up...

Edited May 28, 2012 by Sin-ster

[Bob Hostetter]

Just a thought ...

If a shooter signs up to shoot in Production his ammo is scored as minor regardless of what he/she declares, it's not a choice, it's a requirement. If he/her equipment is later found to be noncompliant the shooter is then moved for scoring purposes to Open, it's not a punishment it's a correction. All stages shot before and after the move are scored in Open, and Open allows for the target hits to be scored either in major or minor. Since the shooter is now shooting Open he should be allowed to have his targets scored based on the power factor of the ammo he/she started shooting the match with. If it was major then all targets should be scored major, if it was minor and he switched to major after the move then all targets should be scored minor. Once he/she is reassigned to Open the shooter has the right to take full advantage of the rules for Open.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Bob Hostetter

[diehli]

But it's not a "correction", it's a punishment.

[Flexmoney]

Man up.

[twodownzero]

This IS about a rule that has recently changed and treats the Production bump to Open differently than any other division's bump to Open.

Tim,

actually the only recent change is the printing of an interpretive statement. Production shooters in the past were not able to change their power factor, if they busted division requirements....

Production isn't treated differently -- bust the criteria for a division while shooting Lim/L10/R/SS minor, and you'll still be shooting minor in Open. Bust while declaring Lim/L10/R/SS Major and you'll still be shooting major in Open. Production shooters shoot minor -- always have, probably always will. If they bust the division criteria, they're treated exactly the same as the folks who bust the criteria in the four other divisions who declared minor power factor.....

1. I disagree. The interpretive statement removed an ambiguity that I would have resolved in the competitor's favor at arbitration prior to its inclusion in the rule book. That is a "change" in my book. It may or may not be to you, because you might have decided it against the competitor anyway. I wouldn't have. A competitor who is shooting a major PF gun with major ammo should be scored major if his division allows.

2. Production is different because one cannot declare anything other than minor in production, so it's a choice compelled by that fact. If someone wants to declare minor in a division that allows major, that is their choice.

It's not inequitable -- it's how it's always been. You shoot production, you declare minor. No different than a shooter in another in another division choosing minor -- other than that it's a compound choice instead of two simple choices....

"How it's always been" is not argument, just a restatement of the status quo. In fact, it hasn't even "always" been that way, since there weren't always divisions, power factor wasn't calculated the same, and in fact you're probably old enough to remember when there was no "Production" division at all.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a double penalty - it's a single one - bumped to open. The competitor already decided to shoot major PF ammunition in a division that only allows declaration of minor PF. That decision has already been made. The fact that their equipment wasn't legal for that division does not change that decision.

The competitor didn't decide to declare minor pf, unlike any other division. The declaration of Production automatically came with a default of declaring minor. It's not elective like it would be for other divisions.

Further, the chrono stage is a barrier to declaring a power factor higher than that which your equipment will satisfy. In divisions other than Production, one can declare major and hope for the best. Not so in Production. If the penalty is a bump to open, it should come with the same election that anyone from any other division gets.

How often does this happen? My guess is that it is a very rare occurrence.

The number of shooters shooting Major PF in production has to be fairly small. The number of times those competitors get bumped to open has to be a very low number.

I watched it happen at a Level II match. Even if it's rare, I don't see why we would structure the rules in such a way that it created an inequity where we basically have to do nothing to change it.

I'm pretty sure there was a lengthy discussion when the statement was added to the rulebook, but I can't find it right now.

I'm all ears on that one. I would have definitely opposed the inclusion of this into the rule book. It's not doing any work.

When someone signs up to shoot Production they are declaring that their ammo will make minor power factor and their gear is Division compliant. You go in knowing you are scored minor that's the Division rule for all shooters no matter if their ammo makes major. When you get bumped to Open you have violated the rules of Production in some way and you were taking advantage of all of the shooters in Production. So now you want to give the shooter more points because their ammo happens to make major after violating the rules for Production.

Here's a situation that could happen under your proposed change, the first stage one goes to at a major match happens to be the chrono. The shooter is shooting Production and his equipment violates the rules but their ammo makes major, they are bumped to Open. Under the rules one can switch guns as long as the gun meets the Division requirements, the shooter borrows or uses his own Open Division gun and equipment. That shooter wins Open Division even though he had violated the rules of another Division, where is the penalty for violating the rules of Production.

My opinion is if you break the Division rules, you can continue to shoot the Match for no score. If you break the rules there has to be a penalty.

Rich

1. No, I just want them to have the opportunity to declare a power factor, which is the same opportunity that every other competitor in every other division gets. A production shooter has not made this election and should have the opportunity to do so.

2. The rules do not allow a competitor to change equipment without the Range Master's approval, and specifically disallow such a change if it would give the competitor a competitive advantage. See Rule 5.1.7, and specifically, see rule 5.1.7.2, and 5.1.8, which imposes a match disqualification for doing so without the RM's approval. 5.2.5.3 also does not allow the competitor to change his equipment during a match.

The ability to change to another gun is not an entitlement and is in fact disallowed except in a specific, narrowly defined instance in our rules. Even then, it is subject to the RM's approval, and that approval can only be given if the remainder of 5.1.7 is satisfied.

So you're wrong in suggesting that the competitor just goes to his car and gets his open gun and wins the match. That can't happen and the rules do not allow that. You are shooting the match with the gun you started the match with unless it becomes unsafe or unserviceable and meets the other requirements for a substitution. Your penalty is that you are shooting in Open with the same gun you declared met the Production rules when you started the match, which is the same penalty as anyone else would get.

Your opinion is that they should shoot the match for no score, and if that were the rule, I'd have no beef with it. Such a rule would be entirely fair--and is in fact the rule that IDPA uses. Our rule is a bump to Open. My position is that a bump to open should come with the ability to elect to declare major PF if appropriate.

Edited May 28, 2012 by twodownzero

[twodownzero]

If the basis of this discussion is that the rule is unfair, then the only solution is to shoot for no score! If an open shooter does not meet the equipment rules (example: big stick too big), they shoot for no score. Your argument of equity demands that all divisions shoot for no score since an open shooter can't get bumped to open!

Later,

Chuck

I agree. That would be a better solution, most likely.

Second, it's not the only Division this has the possibility of happening with. Take a Single Stack shooter declaring Minor to get 10 rounds. Say he's shooting a .38 Super (actually not an uncommon scenario) and he's running his old Open gun ammo at Major PF because that's what the gun likes. Goes a bit overweight and hits Open. Same situation, same result. He declared Minor, we're not bumping him to Major halfway through a match.

Not the same because the competitor had the option to declare whatever he wanted.

Just a thought ...

If a shooter signs up to shoot in Production his ammo is scored as minor regardless of what he/she declares, it's not a choice, it's a requirement. If he/her equipment is later found to be noncompliant the shooter is then moved for scoring purposes to Open, it's not a punishment it's a correction. All stages shot before and after the move are scored in Open, and Open allows for the target hits to be scored either in major or minor. Since the shooter is now shooting Open he should be allowed to have his targets scored based on the power factor of the ammo he/she started shooting the match with. If it was major then all targets should be scored major, if it was minor and he switched to major after the move then all targets should be scored minor. Once he/she is reassigned to Open the shooter has the right to take full advantage of the rules for Open.

You have summarized my many arguments much more briefly than I have and hit the nail exactly on the head.

[bikerburgess]

Is it just me or is two pages on weather a production shooter that earned a bump to open should be scored major or minor so they can place last or last in open division seams a little excessive

Mike

[Anopsis]

The way I'm taking this is that the shooter, once bumped to Open, still has to abide by Production rules instead of the new division?

If he still _has_ to be scored Minor, then why is he allowed to load mags to capacity?

Regardless of why he's been bumped, the fact is that -officially- he's now shooting Open.

I guess my problem with forcing the shooter to retain Minor scoring after reclassification is that it is selectively requiring them to still adhere to a Production division requirement.

As for the shooter changing equipment and winning Open, someone asked where's the penalty in that? The penalty is that the shooter was TRYING to win/compete in Production, and that was taken away from them for their infraction.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Anopsis

[aztecdriver]

Here's what I think I'm hearing, so correct me if I'm wrong...

The move to Open is a punishment for rules infractions-- by intention, and apparently with popular support.

The punishment is and should be stiffer for Production shooters because of the numerous restrictions on modifications and gear. (Per Chuck.)

The rule as it stands is a matter of convenience to some degree. (Although I'm not convinced that it'd be a major inconvenience to change, in the book and in the scores.)

The situation is so rare that it doesn't really matter.

So I pose the question...

In these rare instances, is the shooter more likely to be breaking the rules on purpose (i.e. trying to cheat), or is he simply a new/"for fun" shooter who just screwed up and made a mistake?

In my experience, and even according to some of the examples/statements listed in the thread (i.e. "never going to be an issue at L2 and above"), it's the latter case. Is it necessary to hammer these folks with a compound penalty (Open AND Minor) for a screw up-- most commonly, I surmise, being 11 rounds in the mag on a stage that calls for an unloaded start. (New shooters are going to be the most prone to this, as they don't even realize the implications...)

I guess the difference is that I see these instances as unfortunate events, and feel sorry for the guys who screw them up. The rules themselves and those that support them the strongest seem to be more concerned with cheating. Bear in mind-- I'm not calling for a situation in which the rules hold everyone's hand and make them feel good about life. There definitely MUST be consequences, and relatively stiff and tangible ones at that, for violating Division-specific rules. But do they need to be so darn harsh?

He's already shot at least one stage under the presumption of Production rules-- most commonly including 10 rounds in the mag of a gun that can hold as many as 17. Prior to that, the shooter had already put himself at a disadvantage of shooting Major PF velocity and weight under the presumption of Minor scoring. After the bump, he's stuck with a gun and gear that's woefully outmatched by that of the competitors in his new Division. Essentially, the guy's match is over. That's a lot of punishment in my book for a mistake on par with leaving your cell phone in the house when you head to work and having to turn around after 5 minutes to retrieve it...

Chuck, your assessment of the "lack of judgement call" definitely rings true here and I agree with the notion 100%. Giving the shooter so many options in where to go after he's violated a Division rule definitely seems to be too generous-- and a possible PITA for the MD/RM. I can aslo see how this Major/Minor/Production/Open issue borders on the same thing.

However, in those cases where it's not a clear cut mistake on the part of the shooter that gets him bumped to Open, we already have a rule in place ("judgement call" and all) to address the issues of cheating-- and it should be pretty clear, based on the experience/competitive level of the shooter, whether or not the infraction was an effort to gain an unfair advantage.

10.6.1

In fact, if the evidence suggests that the competitor is intentionally trying to bend/break the rules for his own benefit, shouldn't this be a required DQ in the first place? Chances are that he's been bumped before for something similar, and is a general PITA anyway...

I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by considering it a punitive issue for the shooter - and debating the consequences of that punishment - rather than a way to maintain competitive equity in the match as a whole. The reason we bump to open isn't so much to put the competitor at a complete disadvantage, but rather that open is the division that the equipment will always fit. (aside from magazines over 170mm)

Think of it this way. The competitor shot a stage or stages with equipment that no longer fits the division requirements. It's appropriate for the remaining shooters in that division to not be competing with that shooter. We put that shooter in open because it is appropriate that they compete in a division that their equipment does permit them to be with. Because everything competes in open - that's where they go by rule. Again, the declaration of power factor already happened. They declared minor when they signed up. There is no rule that permits us to change that declaration mid match, regardless if it's from the bump to open, or whether the guy thought his gun was shooting minor in limited and found out at chrono he had enough to make major.

This same thought process played out in the single stack-major/minor thread when the guy that declared major by accident loads his 40 mag with 9 rounds in it on an unloaded start. This is a bump to open as the division requirements laid out for major declaration requires 8 rounds. Violating division requirements does not allow us to only change the scoring to minor and proceed from there.

[DoubleL]

Your division is dictated by gear. If your gear is deemed non production halfway through a match you are essentially cheating, whether intentional or not.

You are bumped all the way up to open, arguably the most equipment based division, because you broke an equipment rule. Non compliance to equipment rules within the most strictly controlled equipment division deserves harsh penalty.

Much like leniency in regards to DQ'ing a newby, this can be argued indefinitely.

Ultimately, you learn to comply with published rules, much like safety DQ's, and learn from the experience. If at a major match you show with little to zero knowledge of your gear.... Too bad. Suck it up. Man the eff up and shoot with the big dogs with a disadvantage. You earned that disadvantage by not being educated about your own personal gear. Arguing fairness of punishment for breaking really the only rule in production(gear must comply to PD limitations) is nuts.

Wanna push the limits of gear in production??

Why are you even shooting production in the first place??

Broke the rules?? Awww too bad.

Wanna shoot major open??? Then BRING AN OPEN MAJOR PISTOL.

[aztecdriver]

Just a thought ...

If a shooter signs up to shoot in Production his ammo is scored as minor regardless of what he/she declares, it's not a choice, it's a requirement. If he/her equipment is later found to be noncompliant the shooter is then moved for scoring purposes to Open, it's not a punishment it's a correction. All stages shot before and after the move are scored in Open, and Open allows for the target hits to be scored either in major or minor. Since the shooter is now shooting Open he should be allowed to have his targets scored based on the power factor of the ammo he/she started shooting the match with. If it was major then all targets should be scored major, if it was minor and he switched to major after the move then all targets should be scored minor. Once he/she is reassigned to Open the shooter has the right to take full advantage of the rules for Open.

I have to disagree. When you sign up for production - major power factor is not available. You still must declare a power factor and the only declaration available is minor. It might be an extremely HOT minor, but it is still minor nonetheless - or more correctly - any ammunition over the required 125 pf.

Let's take the example of a match that has the chronograph tossed out. At which point, the rules state that the declared power factor is the power factor for the match. How do you handle this at that point? We allow a redeclaration of the power factor? There is no support in the rules to change the declaration of power factor after the match is underway.