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Production bump to Open: stuck declaring minor


twodownzero

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Man up.

This.

Is it just me or is two pages on weather a production shooter that earned a bump to open should be scored major or minor so they can place last or last in open division seams a little excessive

Mike

And this.

Break the rules, pay the price defined in the rules.

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Here's what I think I'm hearing, so correct me if I'm wrong...

The move to Open is a punishment for rules infractions-- by intention, and apparently with popular support. :lol:

The punishment is and should be stiffer for Production shooters because of the numerous restrictions on modifications and gear. (Per Chuck.)

The rule as it stands is a matter of convenience to some degree. (Although I'm not convinced that it'd be a major inconvenience to change, in the book and in the scores.)

The situation is so rare that it doesn't really matter.

So I pose the question...

In these rare instances, is the shooter more likely to be breaking the rules on purpose (i.e. trying to cheat), or is he simply a new/"for fun" shooter who just screwed up and made a mistake?

In my experience, and even according to some of the examples/statements listed in the thread (i.e. "never going to be an issue at L2 and above"), it's the latter case. Is it necessary to hammer these folks with a compound penalty (Open AND Minor) for a screw up-- most commonly, I surmise, being 11 rounds in the mag on a stage that calls for an unloaded start. (New shooters are going to be the most prone to this, as they don't even realize the implications...)

I guess the difference is that I see these instances as unfortunate events, and feel sorry for the guys who screw them up. The rules themselves and those that support them the strongest seem to be more concerned with cheating. Bear in mind-- I'm not calling for a situation in which the rules hold everyone's hand and make them feel good about life. There definitely MUST be consequences, and relatively stiff and tangible ones at that, for violating Division-specific rules. But do they need to be so darn harsh? :lol:

He's already shot at least one stage under the presumption of Production rules-- most commonly including 10 rounds in the mag of a gun that can hold as many as 17. Prior to that, the shooter had already put himself at a disadvantage of shooting Major PF velocity and weight under the presumption of Minor scoring. After the bump, he's stuck with a gun and gear that's woefully outmatched by that of the competitors in his new Division. Essentially, the guy's match is over. That's a lot of punishment in my book for a mistake on par with leaving your cell phone in the house when you head to work and having to turn around after 5 minutes to retrieve it...

Chuck, your assessment of the "lack of judgement call" definitely rings true here and I agree with the notion 100%. Giving the shooter so many options in where to go after he's violated a Division rule definitely seems to be too generous-- and a possible PITA for the MD/RM. I can aslo see how this Major/Minor/Production/Open issue borders on the same thing.

However, in those cases where it's not a clear cut mistake on the part of the shooter that gets him bumped to Open, we already have a rule in place ("judgement call" and all) to address the issues of cheating-- and it should be pretty clear, based on the experience/competitive level of the shooter, whether or not the infraction was an effort to gain an unfair advantage.

10.6.1

In fact, if the evidence suggests that the competitor is intentionally trying to bend/break the rules for his own benefit, shouldn't this be a required DQ in the first place? Chances are that he's been bumped before for something similar, and is a general PITA anyway... :roflol:

Admission: I'm arguing rather frivolously here, due in no small part to the fact that I enjoy debates! However, I've seen shooters get bumped to Open and really get down on themselves about it. It can really ruin your day, even if you're just out there for fun-- and more salt in the wound, knowing that you were shooting Major in a Division that recognized the scoring differences, makes it all the worse. I definitely feel for those folks, I don't see how allowing them to receive Major scoring hurts anyone, but I can definitely understand how it might salvage an otherwise ruined match in their minds.

If its a "new shooter just out to have fun" then the bump to open minor won't matter. If its someone trying to cheat, then open minor is not even punishment enough.

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As far as I'm concerned, it's not a double penalty - it's a single one - bumped to open. The competitor already decided to shoot major PF ammunition in a division that only allows declaration of minor PF. That decision has already been made. The fact that their equipment wasn't legal for that division does not change that decision.

The competitor didn't decide to declare minor pf, unlike any other division. The declaration of Production automatically came with a default of declaring minor. It's not elective like it would be for other divisions.

Further, the chrono stage is a barrier to declaring a power factor higher than that which your equipment will satisfy. In divisions other than Production, one can declare major and hope for the best. Not so in Production. If the penalty is a bump to open, it should come with the same election that anyone from any other division gets.

Tim, absolutely they did. The only power factor available in Production IS minor. They had the choice of not signing up for production in lieu of L10, which does have an option for major or minor. Just because the division doesn't recognize major power factor does not mean the competitor didn't choose to be scored that way.

You are incorrect on the chrono being the barrier. The first barrier is your assertion of what you will be scored. The rules provide for declaration being the ONLY mechanism in the event that a chronograph fails of never existed.

You need to stop looking at this as a penalty and start looking at this as separate issues, division equipment requirements and scoring/Power factor requirements. Minor power factor has no ceiling. It only has a floor. You must make 125pf. It doesn't have a requirement for minor to be under a number. Major power factor is the same, it only has a floor, 165pf. The chronograph rules validate the declaration with specific results if the FLOOR is not met. There is no rule that allows power factor to be "determined" at chronograph. It's only a validation of declaration. If the chronograph is not available, the declaration stands. There is no change in declaration permitted on anything after the match begins - only validation and the results of failing validation accordingly.

Once again, production division only recognizes minor power factor, thus when you declare production, you still MUST declare a power factor, and there is only one check box to pick. Minor. You still declared it.

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I just remembered something that semi-correlates with the discussion-- especially since I brought 10.6.1 into the conversation, albeit tangentially.

I personally know of an instance in which a shooter intentionally violated Production rules in order to get themselves bumped to Open.

In the process of trying to move up in Class, they put up a Classifier score that would have counted against them and brought their current average down-- something like 1% away from being thrown out, IIRC. Because the entire match is scored as Open if you get bumped, they loaded their starting mag full on the next (and final) stage and blazed through two arrays without a reload-- which the RO caught instantly, of course.

How does this relate to my argument/stance? If anything, it hurts it!

However, it does make me wonder if some type of judgement call isn't NECESSARY in regards to this rule-- or at least in the application of 10.6.1 in association with/the absence of a bump.

IOW-- let actually-Major be scored Major, let actually-Minor be scored Minor, and let the numerous other disadvantages associated with the move stand. That's plenty of punishment IMHO, without any overkill.

At the same time, if a violation took place in an effort to seek a competitive advantage (not so easy to prove in many cases, but quite obvious in others), 10.6.1-- your day is over. That seems to address the issue of a genuine mistake and flagrant cheating more equitably than doubly penalizing someone for what is most commonly a simple screw up...

This is interesting. Do you consider the example of the guy intentionally violating division rules cheating? Let's think about this for a second...

His motives may be a little wayward, in order to keep a classification score from standing. But we should look at maintaining the equity of the match first and foremost - and let the national classification stuff out of it.

In this situation, the guy violated the rules in order to gain the consequences of the violation. To me, 10.6.1 is something where a violation of the rules occurs and someone is trying to hide it so as not to get the consequences. We may not like the fact that the guy busted to open to keep the score from counting against the division classification - but I don't see how blatently getting caught doing something, which will directly hurt the competitors standings, hurts the integrity of the match.

It's akin to the guy who sees he skinned a no shoot on the first string of said classifier and on the following string bill drills the no shoot to guarantee it a 0. If someone wishes to hurt themselves the rules permit it. It's the ones that try and gain that advantage you speak of, in the match, and then gets caught seeking that illegal advantage.

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Why don't ya just leave well enuff alone, the rules work as they stand. If your not compliant, PAY THE PRICE! There are one or two rules that I think are really unfair but they are what they are and I got over it.

Just shoot and have fun.

Mildot

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First of all, let's not make this about a specific instance or it will be closed without being able to have the discussion. This is not about a specific instance or one specific competitor.

Well, in your original post, you brought up a specific instance. Then you explained your involvement in it. Then you explained your further involvement. You also explained the extenuating circumstances.

I see no reason to change this rule & I dont see this as being an issue very often.

The penalty isnt any more harsh for Prod. Actually I think its very forgiving, since you still get to shoot the match.

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1. No, I just want them to have the opportunity to declare a power factor, which is the same opportunity that every other competitor in every other division gets. A production shooter has not made this election and should have the opportunity to do so.

Sorry Tim, but the shooter entering Production did have an opportunity to choose the power factor for his ammunition. He could have chosen to shoot major or minor in any division that allows those power factors.....

The fact that there are six divisions allowing minor power factor, and only five recognizing major, does not mean that the competitor did not have a choice for power factor.

When I said "how it's always been" -- I meant since PD came into existence, some four months before I found the game.....

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Let's take the example of a match that has the chronograph tossed out. At which point, the rules state that the declared power factor is the power factor for the match. How do you handle this at that point? We allow a redeclaration of the power factor? There is no support in the rules to change the declaration of power factor after the match is underway.

+1....

Once the match is underway, the time for choices is over....

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Let's take the example of a match that has the chronograph tossed out. At which point, the rules state that the declared power factor is the power factor for the match. How do you handle this at that point? We allow a redeclaration of the power factor? There is no support in the rules to change the declaration of power factor after the match is underway.

+1....

Once the match is underway, the time for choices is over....

Not quite, Nik... You still get to choose how you are gonna shoot the stage, except on classifiers..... :roflol:

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This seems simple to me.

When you enter a match, you declare a power factor. Your choice is major or minor. But production is a slightly different animal, in that your PF is already declared for you: your PF is minor. It's one less thing you have to do. Think of it as a value-add.

I've never seen anyone change their own PF declaration midway through a match. I don't think there is any rulebook support for such a thing.

When you go to the chronograph, if you're one of those few shooting major PF in production, well.... you made your declared PF of minor by a very wide margin. :)

So if you get bumped from production to open for magazine capacity issues during a stage, or something with your gun or holster, or whatnot, you're still shooting your declared PF of minor, same as when you started the match.

Ezws has nothing to do with it. (Practiscore couldn't deal with this, either.) The rule is working as designed and intended. Therefore nothing needs to be "fixed".

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Maybe the solution is that a Production shooter should be allowed to declare "major" despite being scored minor then. It'd be a meaningless declaration in the vast majority of cases, but such a solution would solve the .38 Super in Single Stack/bump to open issue as well as not allowing a competitor to change his declaration mid-match.

A .40 caliber SS shooter would similarly have the option to load 8 or declare minor, just like now.

Edited by twodownzero
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Ezws has nothing to do with it.

I think it does (or would) if, as has been suggested, a competitor were allowed to shoot Major after a bump to Open from Production.

Unless you know an EWS trick I haven't seen yet, EWS isn't currently able to properly apply points earned while shooting in Production (Minor) and the points earned while shooting in Open (Major), for the same shooter, in the same match.

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I agree that things work well enough as they are, but for the sake of discussion:

PF isn't 'declared' in Production; Minor is a condition, a requirement of the division, just as mag capacity and holster style is.

Is it really right to say "We're bumping you to Open and you no longer have to comply with Production division restrictions, except for this one".

I still don't get why it's ok to retain some division-imposed constraints while effectively freeing the shooter from others.

For the ones who say 'the shooter made his choice; he declared his PF by choosing to shoot Production', well, the shooter ALSO 'declared' he would load no more than 10 in a mag, but after bumping to Open he's no longer expected to continue with that. It just seems rather arbitrary to me.

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Maybe the solution is ...

You are still assuming there is a problem. I don't think many agree.

The burden is on them to demonstrate how a fundamental aspect of our sport is being completely disregarded.

Especially with clarifying language added to the rule book to resolve the previous ambiguity against the shooter.

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I agree that things work well enough as they are, but for the sake of discussion:

PF isn't 'declared' in Production; Minor is a condition, a requirement of the division, just as mag capacity and holster style is.

Is it really right to say "We're bumping you to Open and you no longer have to comply with Production division restrictions, except for this one".

I still don't get why it's ok to retain some division-imposed constraints while effectively freeing the shooter from others.

For the ones who say 'the shooter made his choice; he declared his PF by choosing to shoot Production', well, the shooter ALSO 'declared' he would load no more than 10 in a mag, but after bumping to Open he's no longer expected to continue with that. It just seems rather arbitrary to me.

About the bolded area above, the rulebook differs. One has to stop looking at it as a division requirement - it's not. It's a scoring option in the division, and in production, there is only one available. When you register for the match, you either signup or validate your division and scoring. They are two separate things. In fact the only divisional requirements tied to power factor is the 8/10-rd in single stack.

Again - you declare division and scoring for the match at registration. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of declaring Limited Minor and finding out at chrono you make major and appealing to be scored so. There is no basis in the rulebook for doing so.

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The burden is on them to demonstrate how a fundamental aspect of our sport is being completely disregarded.

Especially with clarifying language added to the rule book to resolve the previous ambiguity against the shooter.

What fundamental aspect of the sport is being disregarded? A shooter declaring minor is required to shoot minor for the entire match? That's what we are saying here. "Everything fits in Open". Basically when a shooter has an illegal gun for the division, they brought an Open gun to a production match and the bump to open rectifies that.

Actually, I also don't find the burden to be on anyone but those that contend the bump to open should permit changing scoring to major. The rulebook clarifies the way it is. We've expanded upon that. You and others contend power factor is a divisional requirement - part of the equipment, which it is not. You have yet to state how PF is part of the divisional requirements and therefore reset when your division is changed for illegal equipment.

Edited by aztecdriver
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The burden is on them to demonstrate how a fundamental aspect of our sport is being completely disregarded.

Especially with clarifying language added to the rule book to resolve the previous ambiguity against the shooter.

How about we send them home for not meeting the Division that they declared? :blink:

Besides, how is this an issue?

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Maybe the solution is ...

You are still assuming there is a problem. I don't think many agree.

The burden is on them to demonstrate how a fundamental aspect of our sport is being completely disregarded.

Especially with clarifying language added to the rule book to resolve the previous ambiguity against the shooter.

They declared Minor. They shoot minor. There is no moving up in power once a match starts, only down if you fail chrono. If a shooter declares minor they can shoot whatever power factor ammo they want assuming it's higher than 125pf. If they want to shoot Produciton with a Smith 629 and hot .44 mag at 300 PF, that's their choice. It's not a smart choice but they can do it. The fundamental aspect you refer to is Power if I'm reading you right. It's on the shooter to pick the division that suits their gear the best. If they want to shoot Major, shoot any of the other 5 divisions that have that as an option. Production is minor only, period. If that's your pick, you made your decision knowing you'd be shooting minor (or with complete lack of knowledge). You declared your power factor along with your decision to shoot Production. I understand you don't think it has been been explained to your satisfaction. It has to mine. I'm not sure who you think has this burden to demonstrate anything to you. You disagree, fine. I don't see any reason to change. Doesn't look like Flex does either. There are 7 other voting members of the BOD. Maybe you can convince them.

I guess I look at rules a bit differently. I would rather retain rules stability. I look at a rule change from the point of view of what benefit it will bring. Not why shouldn't we make the change. In this case I see zero reason to make the change. You think it's unfair, I don't. I see many reasons to retain the rule, as have been pointed out. I agree with them, you don't.

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I might serve as a good example for this. I actually moved from Production to Open at a Major match. I had a new (to me) Production gun, which failed on the first two stages due to a wrong part being in the gun (slide stop/release). My replacement part was ground down (thus, not Production legal). I let the Range Master know, and shot the rest of the match in Open. Minor.

I didn't finish last. In fact, on the remaining (7 or 8) stages, I was 3rd...which included Chris Tilley, who was the current Open Champ. In the overall for Open, I displaced a good number of shooters. I knew I was shooting Minor and balanced speed, power and accuracy as I saw fit.

I did not win, or lose, the Cadillac.

I did have fun, and was glad to be able to shoot the match after not following the first rule (bring stuff that works).

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not that it can't be done... but shooters generally recognize that there is no point to shoot major loads while you're being scored as if they were minor. Most people are also smart enough to slap in a lower power recoil spring if that's really the issue. if your gun won't run with minor loads, then the shooter would probably just shoot L10 major.

i doubt there are many shooters, if any, being competitive in production using major loads. this rule really would only effect that minority, and as such, is a non-issue.

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Wow - big drama over a minuscule issue. I have an alternative solution to this "problem": Score everyone in Production as MAJOR power factor, regardless of whether their ammo makes Major or Minor. I know I could really do with the points bump :roflol: .

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Look at it this way. You are shooting production, get bumped to open, you can load your mags up, but you can't change the position of your holster or mag holders from their current location, as specified in the production appendix. See 5.2.5.3. You really think changing a PF is gonna make that much of a difference? Leave it alone.....

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