Speed vs accuracy

[sroe3]

I believe he's saying he sees enough of his sights to make the shot. I see my sights for every shot but I know I see only as much as is necessary.

[Poppa Bear]

CHA-LEE, how does one go about transitioning from what you define as "double tapping" into 2 quick controlled shots? i don't drop many points throughout a match, but i fear i'm just getting good at double tapping. ie, i have the timing of the gun down to where i feel i don't need to wait on the sights to break the second shot.

how do i break this?

if this is thread drift, feel free to pm me.

To me a large part of this is GRIP and SPLITS. With a solid GRIP if I try to shoot at a .15 SPLIT I fire the second shot before the sights have fully tracked back. I get 5 to 7 inches of separation. Same GRIP and a .17 to .18 SPLIT. I am hitting around 2" apart. If I loosen up the GRIP I now need around .21 to .23 SPLITS to get the same accuracy. A controlled pair is literally striking that balance between your GRIP and your SPLITS that allows you to control where the rounds are impacting. At that speed it is easy to shoot before your eyes can fully inform your brain that the sights are not aligned so you need to develop the feel for the correct trigger speed that matches your grip. That way as the shot is breaking, your eyes are sending a signal that the sights are properly aligned to your brain.

Now I just need to improve my ability to transition between targets without swinging past the A zone. Hopefully as I master transition drill 2 it will become easier.

[blaster113]

it is a balance between speed and accuracy. shoot all A's and too slow then scores suffer. shoot blazing fast and get too many C/D/M's then scores suffer. easier said then done; shoot A's as fast as possible. tons of time can be made up with efficient movement, not taking make up shots and missing steel vs shooting blazing fast.

I have to learn to accept more A/C's and not miss the damn steel in the interest of saving time. I have this issue of being so focused on shooting that A's my time will be a little longer than other guys. if shooting major pf then a few C hits wont hurt if you're fast. Shot 95% of the points (highest % so far) at my last major; figure if I took a few more A/C's and pushed a little more on the speed then my placement would've been higher.

Edited May 30, 2012 by blaster113

[CHA-LEE]

Cha-Lee, I must say that you are a very talented shooter and I didnt realize that until I saw most of your videos.

Its one thing to talk, its another to deliver. That you do very well.

In your messages, you talk of " seeing your shot" before you actually take the next and try not to double tap blindly.

After watching many of the vids of you shooting, both long range and short range targets ?

I find it hard to believe that you are shooting at the short range targets at the speed you do so, without trusting your gun to be in the right position at the right time.

Im sorry, But I dont believe you when you say you "see every shot"

You shoot too quickly for that to happen in my opinion.

I mean no disrespect, please dont take this as so.

I believe you have an ability that most of do not have.

I believe you have a piece of equipment that you have practiced with enough,that you can count on being on target for your next shot.

I dont think your "seeing" the next shot. I think its expecting or knowing your next shot will be on the target because of talent and many hours of practice.

You have a talent or an ability that rivals pro ball players. Unfortunately, the pay scale isnt fair.

We can all "See" WAY faster than the gun can physically cycle (0.03 - 0.04 sec). All you need to do is open up your mind to allow yourself to observe what is happening. I think the part that you are getting hung up on is thinking that you need to see the exact same quality of sight picture for every single shot. Every distance or shot difficulty requires a different level of sight picture refinement to ensure that the sights are aligned "Enough" to crate a valid hit. Where the rubber really meets the road is training yourself to subconsciously break the shot as soon as the sight picture is valid. When I shoot a stage I don't consciously tell myself to pull the trigger once the sights are on target and aligned. My number one goal is to get the sights on the target as I know the shot will break automatically once I see a valid sight picture. Shooting fast from target to target REQUIRES you to see every shot because you need to know that your last shot on target is good before you can start driving the gun to the next target.

A lot of this stuff is as simple as making the decision to do it. People usually get stuck in the "Double Tap" rut because they never make the decision to treat each shot as an individual unique event. Once you decide to treat each shot as a separate event then seeing each shot becomes vastly easier.

Believe it or not, I see every individual shot break no matter how fast the gun is running.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

All you need to do is open up your mind to allow yourself to observe what is happening.

You can say, "All you need to do is open up your mind to allow yourself to observe what is happening," but it seems to take hundreds or thousands of hours of practice to achieve that level of open-mindedness.

I think the part that you are getting hung up on is thinking that you need to see the exact same quality of sight picture for every single shot. Every distance or shot difficulty requires a different level of sight picture refinement to ensure that the sights are aligned "Enough" to crate a valid hit. Where the rubber really meets the road is training yourself to subconsciously break the shot as soon as the sight picture is valid. When I shoot a stage I don't consciously tell myself to pull the trigger once the sights are on target and aligned. My number one goal is to get the sights on the target as I know the shot will break automatically once I see a valid sight picture.

Well said.

[CHA-LEE]

All you need to do is open up your mind to allow yourself to observe what is happening.

You can say, "All you need to do is open up your mind to allow yourself to observe what is happening," but it seems to take hundreds or thousands of hours of practice to achieve that level of open-mindedness.

I disagree. It comes down to making a choice to observe what is going on or to not observe. For a lot of shooters their observation of the sights usually stops as soon as they decide to pull the trigger. Its like a two stage thought process that happens. Stage 1, align the sights. Stage 2, decide to pull the trigger. If you are stuck in this two stage process then you will never be able to effectively call your shots because your attention is pulled away from observing what is going on when you are thinking about pulling the trigger.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

It comes down to making a choice to observe what is going on or to not observe. For a lot of shooters their observation of the sights usually stops as soon as they decide to pull the trigger. Its like a two stage thought process that happens. Stage 1, align the sights. Stage 2, decide to pull the trigger. If you are stuck in this two stage process then you will never be able to effectively call your shots because your attention is pulled away from observing what is going on when you are thinking about pulling the trigger.

I agree that a conscious decision to observe the sights (or not) can profoundly affect what you get out of the rounds you shoot, but you make it sound as if you made the decision one day, and from that day on you've seen everything -- when other shooters have made the same decision without suddenly calling all their shots.

I now see far more than I used to, and a conscious decision to be visually patient had a huge effect on that, but I didn't go from seeing nothing to seeing everything the instant I made that decision. I do think I got more out of my live-fire training after that, but it wasn't an on-off switch.

[CHA-LEE]

I am not saying that deciding to observe the sights is a magical pill that will act like a light switch enabling you to see everything instantly. To use an analogy, deciding to observe your sights would be the same as deciding to put your hand on a door knob, turn it, and crack the door open. You still have to fully open the door, walk through, then start climbing the 100 flights of stairs to the top floor. Every action and step taken after opening the door needs to be earned in effective practice. Nothing is free or easy. But you can't get through the door and start your journey if you don't first make the choice of putting your hand on the door knob and turning it.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I am not saying that deciding to observe the sights is a magical pill that will act like a light switch enabling you to see everything instantly.

After you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, how many more hours of practice did it take until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few hours, tens of hours, hundreds of hours, or thousands of hours?

[HoMiE]

The goal of practice is to reach certainty.

Where do you spend your attention?

You have to see it for yourself.

[CHA-LEE]

I am not saying that deciding to observe the sights is a magical pill that will act like a light switch enabling you to see everything instantly.

After you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, how many more hours of practice did it take until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few hours, tens of hours, hundreds of hours, or thousands of hours?

That is not an easy question to answer. First, I don't keep track of how long things take to learn. That takes all of the fun out of learning something new. Second, there are too many variables to consider when shooting at different speeds to only isolate the skill of effectively seeing your sights. For example, if your grip or stance is not optimal and you can't effectively manage recoil then you will never be able to shoot super fast from a pure mechanical standpoint. If you are bio-mechanistically limited to shooting .25+ splits then it does not matter if you have the skills to observe faster splits or not. Third, the honing of the shot calling skill never stops. For example, calling each shot while shooting .25 - .35 splits requires a different level of observation than calling shots while shooting .10 - .15 splits.

Another factor to consider is that everyone learns at a different pace. What may take me a week to learn my only take you an hour. What I can tell you is that I shoot about 25,000 rounds a year combined in practice and matches. When I live fire practice I rarely shoot more than 100 rounds as it becomes counter productive if I shoot more than that. This is what I need to keep my shooting skills honed. What you need may be completely different.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

After you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, how many more hours of practice did it take until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few hours, tens of hours, hundreds of hours, or thousands of hours?

That is not an easy question to answer. First, I don't keep track of how long things take to learn. That takes all of the fun out of learning something new. [...] What I can tell you is that I shoot about 25,000 rounds a year combined in practice and matches. When I live fire practice I rarely shoot more than 100 rounds as it becomes counter productive if I shoot more than that. This is what I need to keep my shooting skills honed.

So, after you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, did it take a year -- and thus 25,000 rounds of live fire -- until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few months? A few weeks? I'm only looking for a "ballpark" answer.

[lugnut]

Cha-Lee. You have many gifts- one, you are clearly a great shooter... two you are great with your words and explaining yourself. I'm not sure if you are gifted or just have put a lot into your shooting (clearly you have no doubt).

However I am reasonably certain that calling shots well- is something that MANY people struggle with. I can call my shots.. sometimes. I can call a shot in slow fire within an inch or two at 15 yards. But when I run a field course.... I only wish I could do a tenth as well. I know a ton of shooters that can't call shots as close to what you can. I wish it was an easy thing but clearly it isn't otherwise more people would do it better. I'll keep working at it because I see it as a fundamental that I am just not proficient at yet....

[mikeg1005]

I found my scores in the range of the "B" class competitors.

Accept the A/C hits and increase your speed.

I learned my lesson.

Its speed and accuracy. Just more focused on speed then accuracy.

I can live with that.

Wrong... you will learn your lesson when you never become more than a low/mid B class shooter if you do this.

Right up until middle of B class... you can dominate most shooters by shear speed and OK hits. Upper level Bs and on, you will have people that can shoot fast and get their hits.

If you are getting a charlie on that second shot when going fast then you are not following your sights/or are messing up your fundementals. Every shot needs to be its own thing... not double tap but a sight picture, trigger pull, follow through... with practice, this will become as fast as just hammering the trigger twice w/o aiming. This is the only way to learn to shoot fast and accurately.

Also, saving time buy 'aiming less' saves VERY, VERY little time. There are 10 fold more oppertunities to save time by learning to minimize movement, increase your movement speed, and make target transitions, getting in/out of shooting arrays smoother.

Mike.

Edited May 30, 2012 by mikeg1005

[CHA-LEE]

After you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, how many more hours of practice did it take until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few hours, tens of hours, hundreds of hours, or thousands of hours?

That is not an easy question to answer. First, I don't keep track of how long things take to learn. That takes all of the fun out of learning something new. [...] What I can tell you is that I shoot about 25,000 rounds a year combined in practice and matches. When I live fire practice I rarely shoot more than 100 rounds as it becomes counter productive if I shoot more than that. This is what I need to keep my shooting skills honed.

So, after you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, did it take a year -- and thus 25,000 rounds of live fire -- until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few months? A few weeks? I'm only looking for a "ballpark" answer.

I would say that it probably took me a year to go from not calling my shots to calling all of my shots. But I also spent a lot of time/rounds on testing shot calling verses looking at the targets while point shooting to see if I could get away with not calling my shots on closer/easier targets. When you have a good natural point of aim and index its easy to get sucked into thinking that you can look at the targets while point shooting them and still end up with decent hits. After a bunch of testing I proved to myself that I could shoot faster and achieve better hits on target if I kept a sight focus while calling each shot. If I didn't do the point shooting vs calling shots testing it would have probably taken me about 6 months to burn in calling every shot. But then I would never know if point shooting would be a better or worse strategy. Now that I know looking at targets while point shooting is a dead end it makes it even more important for me to continually hone and improve my shot calling skills. Processing a sight picture and calling shots is a never ending learning process. The key is to keep pushing your skills beyond your current comfort zone in order to find the next level.

[CHA-LEE]

Cha-Lee. You have many gifts- one, you are clearly a great shooter... two you are great with your words and explaining yourself. I'm not sure if you are gifted or just have put a lot into your shooting (clearly you have no doubt).

However I am reasonably certain that calling shots well- is something that MANY people struggle with. I can call my shots.. sometimes. I can call a shot in slow fire within an inch or two at 15 yards. But when I run a field course.... I only wish I could do a tenth as well. I know a ton of shooters that can't call shots as close to what you can. I wish it was an easy thing but clearly it isn't otherwise more people would do it better. I'll keep working at it because I see it as a fundamental that I am just not proficient at yet....

I will be the first to admit that I don't know everything about shooting. All I can do is share my own experiences. As I said before, everyone learns differently and at different paces. Most people settle into a skill level comfort zone and stop pushing to get better. If anyone wants to get better they need to continually strive to get better, even if that means that they have to venture outside of their current comfort zone.

From what I have seen, the number one reason for people failing to call their shots, even though they can, is that they lack the visual patience to allow the shot calling process to happen at its own pace. What usually happens is the Buzzer goes off and you "TRY" to hurry and go fast. When you put an artificial hurried time schedule on getting the shooting done any attempt to be visually patient goes right out the window. This is why my favorite quote from Brian Enos is "If I just shoot as fast as I can call my shots, I will be fast enough". That Quote is 100% true and when you fully embrace that fact you will allow yourself to have the visual patience to call each shot.

Edited May 30, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[Chris iliff]

I found my scores in the range of the "B" class competitors.

Accept the A/C hits and increase your speed.

I learned my lesson.

Its speed and accuracy. Just more focused on speed then accuracy.

I can live with that.

Wrong... you will learn your lesson when you never become more than a low/mid B class shooter if you do this.

Right up until middle of B class... you can dominate most shooters by shear speed and OK hits. Upper level Bs and on, you will have people that can shoot fast and get their hits.

Mike.

Wow, that's some TRUTH right there! I lived that and now I'm working my way out of it. This thread has some EGO busting truths in it. I can see some unwilling non believers. That's great! I won't need to worry about them at matches.

CHA-LEE you are right on......... Good stuff brother.

[motochris]

Lot's of info to process here... thanks people!

[theycallmeingot]

the other day i shot a match with what i would call speed a higher priority over accuracy. it was one of the poorer matches i've shot. speed looks good to bystanders, and feels good while you're doing it, but when scores start getting called out, it's VERY clear when you're shooting beyond your ability.

my best stages were what felt like my slowest ones, after i really gave up on "trying" to be fast and just decided to shoot the targets. unfortunately, i think this is one of those things everyone has to learn on their own, the hard way.

[Lager]

Think member MotoChris said it best. " Lots of info to process here"

Went to work today, thinking about what I asked of Cha-Lee last night. I spent all day thinking about his prior posts or advise and decided to go to the range for some practice and practice his "seeing" technique?

I set up some targets at different distances and started banging away at full speed ( the double tap) thinking this was a good starting point.

I didnt score all that well, there were some Misses, even at the close 10 yard targets.

Then I started to slow myself down a bit, just a little from string to string. All the time remembering Cha-Lee's advise " see the shot" until I got to where I was comfortable at the different ranges. Confident might be a better word, that the holes would be in the right place.

Then I came home and read all that he and others posted and come to find out? Cha-lee further expounded or explained on his technique here and it matched my results at the range today.

Member Mikeg, That was was good response that you made to me. Direct and to the point, appreciate it.

Paul

[Flexmoney]

I find it hard to believe that you are shooting at the short range targets at the speed you do so, without trusting your gun to be in the right position at the right time.

Im sorry, But I dont believe you when you say you "see every shot"

You shoot too quickly for that to happen in my opinion.

Hear it now. Believe it when you are ready.

[Flexmoney]

So, after you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, did it take a year -- and thus 25,000 rounds of live fire -- until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few months? A few weeks? I'm only looking for a "ballpark" answer.

When you throw out a year and 25,000 rounds it almost sounds like you are looking for an excuse for not calling your shoots.

One thing is certain, having a clear image of where you want to go will help you get there more efficiently. The wrong goal/destination will make the trip longer.

[diehli]

I find it hard to believe that you are shooting at the short range targets at the speed you do so, without trusting your gun to be in the right position at the right time.

Im sorry, But I dont believe you when you say you "see every shot"

You shoot too quickly for that to happen in my opinion.

Hear it now. Believe it when you are ready.

So, if you're Franz, who's Hans?

[Xander]

So, after you made the decision to follow your sights through the shot and on to the next shot, did it take a year -- and thus 25,000 rounds of live fire -- until you were consistently calling almost all your shots? A few months? A few weeks? I'm only looking for a "ballpark" answer.

When you throw out a year and 25,000 rounds it almost sounds like you are looking for an excuse for not calling your shoots.

One thing is certain, having a clear image of where you want to go will help you get there more efficiently. The wrong goal/destination will make the trip longer.

I'm not lifting my own chair here, but after learning "calling shot" here at BE (heck, my GM instructor did not even introduced it to me), before my average score is 35%-50%, but after incorporating "calling shots" and everything I learned here, I went up to 90%, and don't go below 80%, and that's only in a span of 3 mos. And I can only manage that time, well... until now to practice 150rds once a week and join matches once every week I do dry fire like crazy

[mikeg1005]

Member Mikeg, That was was good response that you made to me. Direct and to the point, appreciate it.

Not a problem.