Shotgun Magazine Capacity in Non-Open Divisions

[Jesse Tischauser]

Currently there are 3-4 different ways matches run magazine capacity restrictions in Tactical/Tactical Optics & Limited/Tactical Irons Divisions. Which if any is best?

Empty Chamber/Cruiser Ready

8 in the Tube Only

8 in the Tube, 1 on the lifter

9 in the Tube

Loaded Chamber

8 in the Tube, 1 in the Chamber

Then after the start buzzer it's either 8+1 or Unlimited +1.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[Corey]

I personally like the wording of "gun may be loaded with no more than 9 rounds before the start signal". If you can only do 8 for an empty chamber, then so be it. If you have room for 9 in the tube or 1 on the lifter, so be it.

[Alaskapopo]

I agree with Corey. 9 in the gun at the start and unlimited after that.

Pat

[aeropb]

unlimited. we don't need any more limits

[cajun0007]

I vote for no more than 8 in the tube after the buzzer. Why, because I started out with a +5 extension, then I got a + 7 extension, and now I want a + 9 because of the advantange it gives offer the guys with +5. I am tired of the arms/equipment race. Lets leave that to the open guys.

[Robbie]

I vote for no more than 8 in the tube after the buzzer. Why, because I started out with a +5 extension, then I got a + 7 extension, and now I want a + 9 because of the advantange it gives offer the guys with +5. I am tired of the arms/equipment race. Lets leave that to the open guys.

+1

[Clint-M]

9 before the start signal, unlimited after. If guys running extra long tubes take over you can adjust stages to create a more equal playing field but skill trumps capacity alone.

CM

[Overwatcher]

I vote for no more than 8 in the tube after the buzzer. Why, because I started out with a +5 extension, then I got a + 7 extension, and now I want a + 9 because of the advantange it gives offer the guys with +5. I am tired of the arms/equipment race. Lets leave that to the open guys.

Agreed.

Let tac ops be a shooters game,not a wallet/gear game.

Its tough for newer shooters to dump the serious $$ into the game to be competitive.

Its kind of the nature with most competitive sports,but would sure like to see more newer shooters feel like they are the ones holding themself back and not gear.

Agreed,That's what open is for! Sometimes I ask myself why I shoot it...as I watch my wallet go up in flames!

Edited May 21, 2012 by Overwatcher

[AlamoShooter]

A rule that can not or will not be enforced is a useless rule. IF the tube capacity is limited = it will have to be tested like non penetrating rifle rounds have to be tested.

This past CMMG had some stages that the shooter may want to run 3" shells over 2 1/2" shells a shotgun tube that holds 8 2.5" shell limit will not hold 8 3" shells some tube that only hold 8 2.5" shot-shell will not hold 8 2.5" slugs with out an extended cap.

An Old rule of 22" or under for AOL barrel mag was in place in some rules, when I started to buy equipment for 3gun But it was very difficult at the time to find a barrel under 24".

My knee jerk reaction to any rule add or change that limits equipment is NO

I could see that I would not not want some-one to shoot my steel with a 3.5" shot shell, but I am not in favor of a rule to ban them.

[StealthyBlagga]

An Old rule of 22" or under for AOL barrel mag was in place in some rules, when I started to buy equipment for 3gun But it was very difficult at the time to find a barrel under 24".

My knee jerk reaction to any rule add or change that limits equipment is NO

This pretty much sums it up for me. What we do NOT want is a rule that requires ROs to keep track of how many shells a shooter loads or shoots. The way we do it in IMA-SMM3G rules is a very pragmatic approach - start with 8+1, then do what you like after the beep.

I confess I liked the simplicity of the old SOF "22 inch barrel, and mag tube not more than 1 inch past the muzzle" rule. The guns were more compact and "practical", and if you could squeeze 12 x 2-1/2" shells into your gun, go nuts

Edited May 21, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[sdm74]

I vote for no more than 8 in the tube after the buzzer. Why, because I started out with a +5 extension, then I got a + 7 extension, and now I want a + 9 because of the advantange it gives offer the guys with +5. I am tired of the arms/equipment race. Lets leave that to the open guys.

Agreed.

Let tac ops be a shooters game,not a wallet/gear game.

Its tough for newer shooters to dump the serious $$ into the game to be competitive.

Its kind of the nature with most competitive sports,but would sure like to see more newer shooters feel like they are the ones holding themself back and not gear.

Agreed,That's what open is for! Sometimes I ask myself why I shoot it...as I watch my wallet go up in flames!

Last time I checked the majority of guys I see have 3000 dollar JP rifles with 2000 dollar swarorski glass, which my Frankenstein rifle doesn't come close to.

So I don't see how a 50 dollar metal tube amounts to much of a "arms" race.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I have been to major matches that had a different rule on different stages. Its confusing especially for the new Shooters.

[mertbl]

I like 8+1 before start and unlimited after.

[AlamoShooter]

I have been to major matches that had a different rule on different stages. Its confusing especially for the new Shooters.

And that is why Match Directors have to be crazy to keep hosting events. I don't think the inconsistency is ever an event plan

The 140mm OAL for handgun mags has worked just fine, An Ro or Match director has never had to try and stuff rounds in a shooters mag to find out how many they hold.

Edited May 22, 2012 by AlamoShooter

[Jesse Tischauser]

I have been to major matches that had a different rule on different stages. Its confusing especially for the new Shooters.

And that is why Match Directors have to be crazy to keep hosting events. I don't think the inconsistency is ever an event plan

The 140mm OAL for handgun mags has worked just fine, An Ro or Match director has never had to try and stuff rounds in a shooters mag to find out how many they hold.

The list of inconsistencies with in matches normally start with (Safety ON) for an unloaded gun or off? some stages

Hits called for steel on some stages some they are not.

Some ask you if your ready and wait for a head shake- some do the old thing of asking if you understand the course of fire

Some times the RO coaches on missed targets sometime not on the very same stage and RO ? when is that helpful and when does it hurt. I think that does more to hold a beginner shooter back more than any thing else is help too soon and too often.

I am for ( Let the shooter shoot and let them learn ) until they ask for help. as in "!Did I get them All!"

At the start of the stage things are inconsistent. "ReadyBEEP" :mellow: ?Really?

The question of asking if you understand is an OLD one, like Load and Make Ready. Shouldn't it be Make Ready and thin load?

All this is because the CRO's for the match and the Match director did not get on the same page.

Some

I think you meant to post this in the Midwest 3 gun thread.

[HoMiE]

If you don't have any restrictions isn't that pretty much open division?

[Lead-Head]

I would say no more than 9 in gun at any time. This includes a staged gun wiht 9 in tube and empty chamber.

8+1 would be fine. But when a gun has to be staged in a barrel on an empty chamber for safety purposes it is nice to be able to load nine and carge the gun when you pick it up. As long as it is consisent.

I see some 24-26" guns with long mag tubes in TO & TI divisons to increase loading capacity after the buzzer. To me a shotgun that holds 10-12rds belongs in open.

[ziebart]

Generally I like the rules to remain the same, unless there is a real demand/need for change. I shoot USPSA matches and am used to 8 in the tube. That said I bought a SX3 and couldn't find a 22" barrel so I got the 26" and bought a mag tube to match instead of cutting the barrel down. I plugged it to 8 rounds for simplicities sake, and would do the same to my production guns mags if I was stuffing rounds on the clock.

I am not a certified RO, but if they pistol RO's can count to 10+1 in USPSA production then they can count to 8+1 in multigun. I understand it does add more work but I think it is manageable. If there is a lot of cases of people loading too many rounds and the RO not catching it please share. I like to think people are honest but I understand people make mistakes.

As for the equipment race. I don't think mag tubes are an issue. Scopes are much more expensive, and going back to the old 22" barrel rule is very discouraging as many stock shotguns are 24+. Most new shooters won't want to cut down their barrels just to try the sport out. Heck I don't want to cut my barrel down $$ and it shoots good right now the way it is. If you want people to use shorter barrels make tighter COF, right now I have yet to feel like my 26" barrel has held me back.

[Dr Mitch]

It makes the most sense to limit things by length (except for Open), unless you eliminate pre-loading and have the RO counting each shell loaded. If people will yell "Armageddon", then what's stopping them from loading twelve when no one's looking? If you do it by length, everyone has a fair shake at having an equivalent number of rounds in the gun at start signal, and people who can ghost one only have a maximum advantage of one shell. In theory.

[Benelli Chick]

Generally I like the rules to remain the same, unless there is a real demand/need for change. I shoot USPSA matches and am used to 8 in the tube. That said I bought a SX3 and couldn't find a 22" barrel so I got the 26" and bought a mag tube to match instead of cutting the barrel down. I plugged it to 8 rounds for simplicities sake, and would do the same to my production guns mags if I was stuffing rounds on the clock.

I am not a certified RO, but if they pistol RO's can count to 10+1 in USPSA production then they can count to 8+1 in multigun. I understand it does add more work but I think it is manageable. If there is a lot of cases of people loading too many rounds and the RO not catching it please share. I like to think people are honest but I understand people make mistakes.

As for the equipment race. I don't think mag tubes are an issue. Scopes are much more expensive, and going back to the old 22" barrel rule is very discouraging as many stock shotguns are 24+. Most new shooters won't want to cut down their barrels just to try the sport out. Heck I don't want to cut my barrel down $$ and it shoots good right now the way it is. If you want people to use shorter barrels make tighter COF, right now I have yet to feel like my 26" barrel has held me back.

There's a difference between counting how many shots between magazine reloads with a pistol and trying to keep track of # of rounds while someone is stuffing them in the tube every chance they get! Someone like Kurt Miller is shooting and loading and you can never count how many he has done between reloads, because he reloads continuously!

I think if it's 8+1, empty chamber start should only be 8 in the gun, but that's just me!

I don't want to try to count. If you only want them to have 8 ever in the tube, they need to have a tube that takes only 8 because it's too hard to keep track of as an RO! That's why 8+1 at the start or 8+empty chamber and then load at will. If your tube is as long as an open gun, then you'll have trouble with doorways and ports. Yes, the extra capacity can be an advantage as you can stuff a couple extra in and shoot an array of 9 without tunning dry (see Superstition's steel free for all this year) but I saw a guy with 8 plus 1 capacity, shoot it perfectly with no standing reloads by just using his brain, and everybody has to load the same amount!

Just my .02.

Denise

[ziebart]

Benelli Chick

I forgot about the guys like Kurt Miller, he would would make it difficult to keep track of since unlike a pistol there isn't always the same number of rounds going in the gun.

I agree about the 8+1 loaded chamber or 8+0 if an empty chamber start. Sorry if I worded it poorly.

If a match wants to reduce the "equipment race" than requiring plugs to 8 rounds is much cheaper than requiring 22" barrels. It will require mags to be checked during the match, but if you say 140mm on pistol mags you are already checking mags.

At the end of the day Superstition sells out and USPSA nationals doesn't so you must be doing something right.

[StealthyBlagga]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

[Alaskapopo]

If you don't have any restrictions isn't that pretty much open division?

What open is really about is optics and muzzle brakes and speed loaders/mag fed shotguns. We don't limit the rifle capacity in tac optics or limited so why with the shotgun. (at least you could argue that) I say it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pat

[Jesse Tischauser]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

How can u say it's not broke when every match has a different rule set on the issue? Sounds about as broke as it gets to me.

[Brian Payne]

This is not the biggest "equipment race" issue we have in 3-gun. Not broke = don't fix.

How can u say it's not broke when every match has a different rule set on the issue? Sounds about as broke as it gets to me.

This to me is what I like about 3-gun. I actually LIKE that each match has different rules. Part of the match preperation is knowing the rules and preparing for that rule set. I think the different rules adds to the special flavor that each match has. It isn't like we are unaware that there are different rule sets out there, so there shouldn't be any surprises for anyone.

I vote to not add any more rules but if I had to pick one rule for shotgun, it would be 8 in the gun for empty chamber (this includes 7 in the tube and one on the lifter) then free for all after the beep. Loaded chamber starts would be 8+1, then free for all after the beep.