unsuccessful in first reloading attempt...could use a reliable recipe

[cpa5oh]

I've just got involved with USPSA (have three matches of experience.) Everyone has been telling me to reload so that I could shoot more and I finally gave in when I went to two Walmarts and could only find 200 pieces of Winchester white box 9mm. So I went to Cabela's yesterday morning and bought a press, brass cleaner, manuals, scale, bullets, primers and powder.

I got 115 grain round nose plated Berry's bullets (they were cheap and were recommended by the Cabela's employee.) I got Winchester small pistol primers and Winchester 231 powder (also on recommendation of the Cabela's employee...seemed to know what he was talking about.) Spent the whole day setting up, finally got 30 rounds done, went to the range and was having light strikes and failures to push the slide all the way back (in both a CZ 85 combat with Cajun Gun Works's ultralight kit and Glock 34 with competition spring kit.)

None of the books I have show any load data for 115 gr FMJ bullets let alone plated lead round nose. The guy at Cabela's told me to use the load data for jacketed hollow points at 115 gr...that was a failure as described above (I was using 4.1-4.3 grains of the W231 with an overall length of 1.165, which is the same as the Winchester white box overall length.)

I searched all last night and this morning and am not finding any load data on 115 gr fmj or plated round nos bullets. Anybody have any thoughts on where I go from here? I assume the light strikes are purely primer/spring related and the failure to ejects were because my loads were too light...not sure how overall length exactly fits in (my understanding is that if I go shorter in overall length that would effectively raise the load.) So I could go up a few grains and try again or reduce overall length a little bit...and that's the plan unless I get any recommendations here. Anyone have any thoughts on what I should try next (or if my plan is proper?)

Alternatively, if someone would give me a recipe that is commonly used in USPSA production for guns modified such as mine with reliability right now as the main focus, I'd appreciate it...I'd order the bullets, powder, primer and make some cartridges at that overall length.

(I can't believe that, with all of the 115 gr factory bullets sold at the stores, that I can't find load data in any of my books or online.)

[yoshidaex]

Get a cheap chrono.

Verify the primers are seated well.

For the spring kits you have in your gun, federal SP primers should help with ignition.

[herky]

IMHO your load is a little light, the Winchester load manual I have lists a starting load of 4.4grs of 231 which they say goes 1045 fps for about 120 pf. The max load they list is 4.9grs, 1135 fps, and 130 pf, so you can see you are on the very low end. Your OAL should be good and a load in this range should work with your modifications. Hope this helps.

[mcracco]

The Cabela's guy was helpful to the point of telling you to use jacketed data for the Berry's plated bullet. You really want to look at lead bullet data. Even for lead your load is too light. Nothing wrong with 231 but you should go to hodgdon.com and check the loading data:

115 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP

OAL is determined by your bullet profile and chamber of your barrel not what WWB happens to be. Pull the barrel out of your gun and test fit a loaded round. If the round 'sticks' it is too long and bullet is getting stuck in throat/rifling. Shorten until you hear and feel mouth of case hitting chamber and round falls freely from barrel. Then go .005-.010" more.

Edit: Grumpy caught my pre breakfast math error.

Edited May 13, 2012 by mcracco

[GrumpyOne]

The Cabela's guy was helpful to the point of telling you to use jacketed data for the Berry's plated bullet. You really want to look at lead bullet data. Even for lead your load is too light. Nothing wrong with 231 but you should go to hodgdon.com and check the loading data:

115 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP

OAL is determined by your bullet profile and chamber of your barrel not what WWB happens to be. Pull the barrel out of your gun and test fit a loaded round. If the round 'sticks' it is too long and bullet is getting stuck in throat/rifling. Shorten until you hear and feel mouth of case hitting chamber and round falls freely from barrel. Then go .050-.010" more.

.005-.010 more.....not .050....

[Hi-Power Jack]

I got 115 gr Berry's bullets WW SPP and WW 231 powder

was having light strikes and failures to push the slide all the way back (I was using 4.1-4.3 grains of the W231 with an overall length of 1.165,

CPA, Your components are all fine to start.

Your OAL may have to be reduced a little?? See other reply re: setting OAL.

Your crimp may be too tight - takes some time to get crimp correct.

Your powder is too light.

You really have to work on the OAL and crimp for your gun - then

experiment until you get it right.

Good luck,

[Cheesewhiz]

Getting into reloading and bee keeping are not all that related but nether will get you honey in 24 hours.

If you have no prior reloading experience, read those manuals and re-read them, not the recipes, the stuff involving set up, theory and troubleshooting.

Double check your press set up against the manuals that came with it, there are some fairly decent videos on the internet that are press specific as far as setting it up. Take it slow and learn as you go, good luck and remember to have fun.

[mcracco]

.005-.010 more.....not .050....

What's an order of magnitude between friends? Corrected, thanks.

[RH45]

Load is way too light.

When I ran 231, behind a 115 grain bullet, depending on which gun I was loading for, I ran 4.8-5 grains of powder, loaded as long as the barrel/magazine would take them.

[Trident]

The Cabela's guy was helpful to the point of telling you to use jacketed data for the Berry's plated bullet. You really want to look at lead bullet data. Even for lead your load is too light. Nothing wrong with 231 but you should go to hodgdon.com and check the loading data:

115 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP

OAL is determined by your bullet profile and chamber of your barrel not what WWB happens to be. Pull the barrel out of your gun and test fit a loaded round. If the round 'sticks' it is too long and bullet is getting stuck in throat/rifling. Shorten until you hear and feel mouth of case hitting chamber and round falls freely from barrel. Then go .005-.010" more.

Edit: Grumpy caught my pre breakfast math error.

Using this formula I measured my barrel of my P226 at 1.228 meaning @ .005= 1.223 and @ .010= 1.218 seems really long to me. I doubt that it would load or cycle at this lenght.

In measuring I placed a sized, but not crimped case, with bullet, into the barrel and pushed until fully seated. Removed, replaced, repeated until the bullet fully seats and falls out without catching on the rifling.

[Dirty Rod]

I load Berrys 115 gr Plated for my wife. 4.3 - 4.7 gr of 231 with an OAL of 1.40 works in all three of her guns but 4.5 is the most accurate. I haven't had a chance to chrono yet. None are production guns but thought I would toss it out for reference.

Using this formula I measured my barrel of my P226 at 1.228 meaning @ .005= 1.223 and @ .010= 1.218 seems really long to me. I doubt that it would load or cycle at this lenght.

Definitely long. SAAMI specs have a max of 1.169 for 9mm so your chamber would be way out of spec @ 1.223.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Dirty Rod

[CocoBolo]

First my confession, I know nothing about your tupperware. The Cajun gun works ultralight kit specifies Federal Primers Only. I have the kit in my Shadow, that said mine runs Winchester Primers just fine. Extended firing pin?

You didn't buy a Dillon at Cabellas you probably got a LNL. So on that loader make sure that you seat the primer all the way with a good hardy jab on the up stroke you can feel it when it bottoms out. If you go back to the range and it don't go bang pull the trigger a couple more times, then you will know that you have a high primer, the fist hit knocks it down to where you should have seated it and the next sets it off. By the way congrats the LNL is a great press, I've loaded 100,000 plus rounds on mine. I also have a Dillon but I'm not a Blue Biggot.

Your OAL is too Loooooooooong. Drop your oal to 1.140 or so my normal is 1.145 with Montana Gold 124gr CMJ a great bullet. The barrel on my Shadow has been head spaced to take 1.175 ammo. Depending on the Ogive of the Barney Bullets, I mean Berry you may need to go shorter. You can tell if they are right by cycling them slowly thru the gun feeling for hang ups, then doing it rapidly. Do this safely please with dummie rounds.

W231 is the kissing cousin of WST and while not my goto for 9 mm it is capable. With WST my 130pf load with a 124gr was 4.7gr, since 231 is approximately the same your 130pf load with 231 and a lighter bullet 115gr is going to be higher. I would agree with the 4.9 above as being about right based on theory.

Do not over crimp the Barney Bullets or you will get tumbling. With all station full in the press (then all need to have a case to do accurate adjustment), adjust the TAPER CRIMP DIE to just 1/4 turn after contacting the case/bullet. Crimp one then give it the thumb test. Measure oal, press round against bench with thumb, measure again, same length, then ok. Measurment at crimp @.378

Big secret tip, check all suspected brass with a magnet, some of it is steel.

Check brass for crimped primer pockets. Throw out all GECO brass it is crimped or ream the pockets.

Make friends with someone that reloads, not the onese you see at the match having trouble, invite them over for Dinner and drinks, but drinks after the loading only. My only Squibs were post happy hour once, learned my lesson.

I remeber my first batch of 9 mm reloads, went to an IDPA match, it jammed so bad I had to press the muzzle against a post and whak the crap out of it to get the loaded round out after beating my hand bloody to try to get the slide to close. We all learn but it is a process that takes keen observation skills and a little time money and pain.

Edited May 13, 2012 by CocoBolo

[Craig N]

When I started reloading I got 2 different manuals. I got the Hornday and the Speer books. There are little differences in what each recommend but you can usually find a happy medium in the middle. Get one of the good manuals and READ READ READ. You will find out that reloading is almost as much a hobby as shooting is. Haunt the various gun web sites and read read read you can learn a lot. Like that Federal primers are softer and tula/wolf are pretty hard. The difference a magnum primer can make from a standard primer on velocity. What powders other people use and like. But YOUR gun will be a little different from the next guys.

When I started I used a Taurus PT99 and Glock 34. 124 grain Hornady Jacketed bullet over 4.9 grains of Unique is what my 99 loved the best. The Glock not so much. I didn't save much in ammo costs for a match but the accuracy was a LOT better. I haven't used that load in a long time since I haven't reloaded much lately.

Calipers is a needed item. Don't know if you have them or not but OAL makes a difference and you need to be able to measure what you got.

[gary2232]

Welcome to the world of reloading. First thing I learned is the guy at Cabllas is just selling product. It will take some time but you will put it all together. The CZ is hard to get a OAL for short to lands and sensitive to the ogive of some bullets. Keep reading this forum take what info that fits to your situation and use it. I am a new reloaded and it took me several weeks to get to and standard load that I can produce. Good luck and enjoy the learning curve and if want to shoot buy a box of ammo and do not rush your reloading!

[Cheesewhiz]

Actually any Berrys RN bullet can be loaded in a CZ75 based gun at 1.165. The chamber clearance for that shape is at 1.185, I have a lot of CZ's. It may not be the best length for it but they can be loaded that long in a CZ.

I load Berrys RN to 1.155 or 1.160 as a target and they feed just fine. I think the OP's issues are before setting a length, he mentioned that he had some primers not igniting, they probably aren't being seated enough.

...but I would have him start over with his whole set up, get the sizing/decapping die right and move on from there.

[rfwobbly]

Welcome to reloading. So you'll know next time....

Berry makes a 115gr Hollow Base RN which you can order. This bullet has a longer bearing surface and from all reports is the 115gr bullet to shoot. They also make the same thing in 124gr HBRN.

[cpa5oh]

Thank you for all of the replies!

First thing - the loads being too low. I've loaded 5 rounds each of the following:

- same overall length as I had (about 1.165) at 4.5 to 4.6 grains of W231

- same overall length as I had (about 1.165) at 4.8 to 4.9 grains of W231

- 1.145 overall length at 4.5 to 4.6 grains of W231

I'll try them in that order. Hopefully one of those will solve the ejection/feeding issues that must've been caused by the light loads.

Second thing - the light strikes. I've got 1,000 Winchester primers...and I could get Federal primers if necessary...but the thing I don't understand is that I have no problems whatsoever shooting Winchester White Box or Remington (the yellow bulk pack) ammo in either the Glock 34 or the CZ. I'm not understanding why I'd need to go to Federal primers in my reloads when it would seem to me that Winchester uses their own primers in their cartridges?

I have to read more about the crimp...at the crimp area I'm getting measurements of right around .378...I have to play with the adjustment because I don't understand if a tighter crimp would reduce that measurement or not.

[mcracco]

Using this formula I measured my barrel of my P226 at 1.228 meaning @ .005= 1.223 and @ .010= 1.218 seems really long to me. I doubt that it would load or cycle at this length.

You can definitely go shorter and using a lighter, shorter bullet you will want to. What that exercise it telling you is where the bullet is in relation to the 'forcing cone' in the chamber. The less a bullet has to travel unsupported to get into the rifling the more accurate it will tend to be. But test fitting in your mag and checking how they feed is a part of what you can live with for OAL.

The 1.169" OAL SAAMI spec is fine but that is for a classic 9mm round nose in anyone's gun. Handloading you have the opportunity to customize the load to your gun and your liking.

[Classic_jon]

I will second what CocoBolo said about running a magnet across the brass before using it.

I bought a 150lb pull magnet from the discount store for about 15.00 and it has been one of the best investments I have made in reloading safely. There are some manufacturers that coat their steel in brass or copper and you really can not tell easily by eyeball.

Past that, there is a lot of good information being given in this thread on power factor and crimp. Good luck and safe reloading!

[cpa5oh]

To update - I loaded up 30 rounds and went to the range. The ones I loaded at 1.6 OAL with 4.8 to 4.9 grains of W231 worked in both guns except for 1 light strike in the CZ...the ones I loaded at 1.45 OAL with 4.5 to 4.6 grains of W231 worked flawlessly in the CZ but I had some feeding issues with the Glock 34 (spent case ejected fine but the next round kinda went in diagonally nose up and got stuck till I cleared it.) So I've loaded up 100 rounds at 4.5 to 4.6 grains at 1.60 OAL - I think that's gonna work in both guns. If it works, I'm all set - then once I use the components I have maybe I'll play around with something more along the lines of what you guys use in your competition guns.

Thank you for all of your helpful replies!

[CocoBolo]

To update - I loaded up 30 rounds and went to the range. The ones I loaded at 1.6 OAL with 4.8 to 4.9 grains of W231 worked in both guns except for 1 light strike in the CZ...the ones I loaded at 1.45 OAL with 4.5 to 4.6 grains of W231 worked flawlessly in the CZ but I had some feeding issues with the Glock 34 (spent case ejected fine but the next round kinda went in diagonally nose up and got stuck till I cleared it.) So I've loaded up 100 rounds at 4.5 to 4.6 grains at 1.60 OAL - I think that's gonna work in both guns. If it works, I'm all set - then once I use the components I have maybe I'll play around with something more along the lines of what you guys use in your competition guns.

Thank you for all of your helpful replies!

There is only one way to seat a primer, ALL THE WAY! So lear to feel when the press bottoms out.