Gun Abandonment Practices

[StealthyBlagga]

As 3-gunning has become more popular and more competitive, I seem to see more folks trying to shave time off their run by performing their gun abandonments as quickly as possible. A lot of the time this means throwing or dropping the gun into the abandonment receptacle, as opposed to placing it carefully.

Personally, I'm not cool with competitors allowing their guns to fall out of their physical control, regardless of the distance of the fall, and regardless of whether the gun is "unloaded" or "on safe". I'm sure I am not the only one who has witnessed guns tumbling or bouncing out of abandonment receptacles, or otherwise ending up pointed in an unsafe direction, because of this practice.

My question is whether IMA rules need to do a better job of defining what are acceptable gun abandonment practices. As a starting point, I am thinking about something along the lines of the text in USPSA rule 10.5.3, which provides for safe abandonment with following conditions:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the [gun] until it is placed firmly and securely [in the defined abandonment location], and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur [i.e. the 180 rule is not broken], and

10.5.3.4 The [gun] is in a ready condition as specified in Rule 8.1.1. [i.e. safety on or fully unloaded]

This wording would need some refinement, but what do folks think of the general idea? It could be tough for the RO to make the call sometimes, but then again that is true of a lot of our rules (trigger finger, 180 etc.).

I know that the type of abandonment receptacle is always a hot topic, and I'm sure some folks will say throwing the gun is OK if the receptacle is designed for it - I don't really want to get into that debate here so please try to focus on the desirability of better-defined abandonment practices regardless of whether the abandonment receptacle meets your personal standards of construction.

Edited May 10, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[1chota]

someone with a glockenspiel might feel ok to throw the dang thang, but my pistols cost me too much. personally, i am too slow to worry about ditchin' the gun quickly......i drop the mag and rack the slide twice to make sure, then put it in the box or barrel or waste basket or whatever they are using........

[kampr]

After looking down the business end of a recklessly abandoned MP5 last year, Ill bet at least one other RO, myself and the squad that was waiting to go, could live with some defined/stricter rules on this topic!

Edited May 10, 2012 by kampr

[ClutchUSMC]

I'd be willing to give up spearing my rifle and shotgun if everyone else did too. It's not like I am going to win or lose on getting rid of the gun, but I think that it will open the rules up to interpretation by the RO. I don't want to ask an RO to make a judgment call ever. It puts them in a really rough spot when something big is on the line. I think the rules are fine the way they are now, you just have to design the grounding areas and containers so that things like the spinning mp5 dont happen.

[dcloudy777]

There's really just no practical way to objectively "judge" the way a weapon is abandoned. All you can do is monitor the muzzle orientation during the abandonment (which is hard enough), and then look at the final resting position of the weapon. The only way I can think of to "slow down" the process is to make the receptacles smaller, and that's going to compromise safety just as much as putting guns down too fast, and piss shooters off in the process. Requiring all guns to be abandoned completely empty would be fair for everyone (almost), and would solve the problem, but the shotgun makes that impractical, especially in Open.

DanO

[StealthyBlagga]

There's really just no practical way to objectively "judge" the way a weapon is abandoned.

Thats why I like the USPSA wording: "The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the [gun] until it is placed firmly and securely [in the defined abandonment location]". To me this wording is pretty unambiguous - keep hold of the gun until it settles in the receptacle. If the RO sees the gun in the air then a violation has occurred. Like with the 180 rule, the RO has to rely on their skills of observation and good judgment, and not call a violation unless they are sure one occurred.

[El Guapo]

There's really just no practical way to objectively "judge" the way a weapon is abandoned. All you can do is monitor the muzzle orientation during the abandonment (which is hard enough), and then look at the final resting position of the weapon. The only way I can think of to "slow down" the process is to make the receptacles smaller, and that's going to compromise safety just as much as putting guns down too fast, and piss shooters off in the process. Requiring all guns to be abandoned completely empty would be fair for everyone (almost), and would solve the problem, but the shotgun makes that impractical, especially in Open.

DanO

It wouldn't be a problem with the shotgun if people would just give up on the antiquated tube guns and embrace mag fed shotguns.

[OPENB]

We already have a rule for it. If it doesn't have the safety on or is not unloaded, DQ. If it falls or breaks the 180, DQ. Too much subjectivity in "do it safer". Not sure about IMGA, but USPSA has the unsafe gun handling rule. I think safety rules have to be clearly definable, ie. 180 violations, finger in trigger guard. "You abandoned your rifle too forcefully" is not. "You dropped your rifle" is.

[outerlimits]

Or change the abandon rule to be unloaded...period...regardless of the weapon or type of safety.

[Chuck Anderson]

Or change the abandon rule to be unloaded...period...regardless of the weapon or type of safety.

Then you end up with what we had before. People spraying the last rounds out of the gun and everyone hoping they stayed somewhere in the berms.

[CraigS.]

Or change the abandon rule to be unloaded...period...regardless of the weapon or type of safety.

Then you end up with what we had before. People spraying the last rounds out of the gun and everyone hoping they stayed somewhere in the berms.

Glad those days are over....

[Bryan 45]

Or change the abandon rule to be unloaded...period...regardless of the weapon or type of safety.

yuck.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I think the rules are fine as they are. I personally don't want IMGA rules to go the USPSA route where you need a dang lawyer to interpret them. If you abandon your gun either on-safe or empty, you're good to go. If the gun isn't on safe (and loaded), or completely unloaded, or it falls or drops from it's intended receptable - you pack your bags.

As both an RO (and competitor), I don't want ROs to have to judge "how safe" the actual abandonment is. Done "at speed", the abandonment only takes a fraction of second and I'm not sure I could adequately judge "safety" in that fraction of a second. I can, however, judge the final condition of the firearm with no problem.

[outerlimits]

Or change the abandon rule to be unloaded...period...regardless of the weapon or type of safety.

Then you end up with what we had before. People spraying the last rounds out of the gun and everyone hoping they stayed somewhere in the berms.

Chuck-

10.5.3 was supposed to have that covered. I take it from your answer, you're not quit so sure? we already have folks doing that with a shotgun whilst transitioning from shot to slug or vice versa. Just saying, an empty gun less likely to go bang than a safe loaded gun...

Flame suit on I guess.

[ClutchUSMC]

In my mind requiring all guns to be completely empty is almost more dangerous than just dumping them in a proper container hot. I would rather a shooter leave a gun, condition 1 off safe, pointed at the ground than have him running at full speed either jacking rounds out of the shotgun or dumping them into the berm at full speed. It's first and foremost a shooting competition let's not make it an unloading competition too.

I myself have had my pistol (2011 SVI) fire out of battery twice when unloading at high speed. Once durring ULSC at an USPSA match and once when dumping it durring a 3 gun match. After turning my hand to ground beef the 2nd time I now always ground on safe or shoot the last round out instead of racking the slide at warp speed. It's not an uncommon problem when you use match primers and a long ejector, which I have since fixed.

But then I'm also of the opinion a grounded 2011 with a working grip safety is just as safe as any glock, xd, m&p regardless of the position of the thumb safety.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ClutchUSMC

[ClutchUSMC]

Here is a video of it happening last summer. You can hear it fire out of battery when I ground it.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ClutchUSMC

[outerlimits]

Here is a video of it happening last summer. You can hear it fire out of battery when I ground it.

Maybe I missed something, but why we're you allowed to finish shooting after that went bang?

[ClutchUSMC]

The pistol was pointed at the berm when it happend, why would you have stopped me?

[steviesterno]

looked like the gun was pointed at the ground, not the berm, and I'm guessing a round went through the bucket...

[outerlimits]

The pistol was pointed at the berm when it happend, why would you have stopped me?

10.4.6-clearly

[Doug H.]

The pistol was pointed at the berm when it happend, why would you have stopped me?

10.4.6-clearly

The audio on the vid is not synchronized with the video and the camera is too far away from the action so it is hard to tell exactly what happend, but if you fired a shot while unloading or grounding a gun at any match I've ever been to you would be DQed. If you are having frequent episodes of out of battery discharges you need to change your technique. The one time last year I tried to get all slick, cleared my shotgun and tossed it into a barrel did not end well. I almost always ground guns loaded with Safety on and hold the safety in position as I put the gun down. Perhap not as fast as throwing it in but leads to less DQs.

Doug

[ClutchUSMC]

This match wasn't under USPSA rules. Still I find it hard to believe the rules would DQ a shooter who is following all the safety rules, the round impacted the berm, finger was out of the trigger guard, etc. I have shot 100+ 3gun matches but never one that was actually run with USPSA rules, so I am sure you guys no more about the letter of the law where thats concerned. I still don't understand why it is such a harsh penalty if the round impacts the berm. If it had gone through the dump barrel then I would agree, DQ no doubt.

[StealthyBlagga]

A detonation during unloading is different from a discharge during unloading. See USPSA rule 10.4.3.1 and IMA SMM3G rule 2.4.3.1. The RO would make the determination if these rules apply.

Edited May 13, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[ClutchUSMC]

Thanks for the clarification. The IMA rules make more sense to me from a competition and safety standpoint. It seems silly that USPSA would DQ you for something while moving but they wouldn't if you were standing still. Unsafe is unsafe.

It seems like the IMA rule was written with this exact situation in mind.

Edited May 13, 2012 by ClutchUSMC

[Doug H.]

A detonation during unloading is different from a discharge during unloading. See USPSA rule 10.4.3.1 and IMA SMM3G rule 2.4.3.1. The RO would make the determination if these rules apply.

I believe in a detonation, the bullet does not go down the barrel because the case is not in the chamber and the ejector fires the primer. If the bullet goes down the barrel then the case was in the chamber so the ejector cannot have caused the primer to fire and would be a discharge. I think that is the reasoning for the exception below:

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun,

is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification,

however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

Doug