Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) I'm actually fairly surprised that most MD's and RO's are okay with this. There must be an upper limit to your patience? What it a competitor air-gunned the stage for 5 minutes? But, maybe this is just more of an annoyance than anything, since it's unlikely that a majority of competitors would ever take this long. Edited May 8, 2012 by Onagoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But seriously though, am I the only one who thinks that dedicating this amount of time to MR is ridiculous? I don't know that you're the only one..... I do know, based on experience, that the length of a make ready routine is largely irrelevant and has very little impact on stage clearance times..... Take an area match where you might run 120 shooters in a single day. How much time can you possible save? 1-2 seconds per shooter? You've saved a whopping 2-4 minutes at the end of the day..... Even at ten seconds per, you've saved a whopping 20 minutes, over the course of a ten hour day..... And that's assuming that the time pressure at Make Ready doesn't have a negative impact on shooting time, leaving you with no gain, or worse an increase in stage clearance time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 No, we've seen no time savings as the rules became more restrictive, if anything things are worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Its not a straw man argument. Both points have to do with delaying a match. While it might not have an effect in your experience, it does in mine. It probably has more to do with how you run a match, but if you've lined up 10-15 shooters to shoot four stages and have different shooters coming in every 2 hours, it bogs things down. Taking too long between shooters, no one reseting targets, excessively long MR procedures will significantly delay a squad...and once you get behind, it only gets worse. If you're having difficulty in matches you run -- feel free to start a thread on that, and let us know how things are run. We might be able to help..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'm actually fairly surprised that most MD's and RO's are okay with this. There must be an upper limit to your patience? What it a competitor air-gunned the stage for 5 minutes? But, maybe this is just more of an annoyance than anything, since it's unlikely that a majority of competitors would ever take this long. You probably need to get down and shoot some USPSA matches, as Flexi pointed out it is a pet peeve for some but the ones responsible for running major matches find it has next to no effect on the time it takes to run the match. If it did they would be the first ones screaming for rule changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 More USPSA is on my agenda this year. Interesting comments and I will pay more attention as to whether or not this changes anything on matches I run. I think the bigger problem might be that we get carried away with how many competitors we can get through in a limited time period....so every time saving opportunity seems worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'd rather have a bus load of shooters in a match with exaggreated get-ready rourines, than even one three-string Standards stage. Even with 'normal' MR times, having three MR's per shooter for a stage takes a l-o-n-g time and has a very negative impact on the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Unsportsmenlike conduct? As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly. No. Just no. In a vacuum you're completely right Flex. Knowing that Emanuel went to that stage with the specific intent to screw with the RO and see how long he could drag it out and mess with the rest of te shooters in the match? I'd drop him to the bottom of the squad. If he wanted to keep screwing around he's always welcome to arbitrate the DQ he'd receive from me. Regular shooter who takes awhile, it is what it is. Shooter who talks about how he's going to do it ahead of time, then posts video of it? Sorry, seems like the definition of Unsportsmanlike to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Its not a straw man argument. Both points have to do with delaying a match. While it might not have an effect in your experience, it does in mine. It probably has more to do with how you run a match, but if you've lined up 10-15 shooters to shoot four stages and have different shooters coming in every 2 hours, it bogs things down. Taking too long between shooters, no one reseting targets, excessively long MR procedures will significantly delay a squad...and once you get behind, it only gets worse. If you're having difficulty in matches you run -- feel free to start a thread on that, and let us know how things are run. We might be able to help..... As I stated before we have a lot of trouble running big numbers of shooters through matches up here. Our Provincials is run over 5 days to put 200 shooters through, this would be unacceptable in the US where 300+ are put through in 3 days There are many problems: Over crowding of stages and round counts on shooting bays Squad sizes (too small/too large) Patching resetting Scheduling Shooting multiple stages in one bay concurrently Stage set ups where patching is difficult due to placement of targets I'll think of some more but perhaps a thread on efficient match management would be helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 More USPSA is on my agenda this year. Interesting comments and I will pay more attention as to whether or not this changes anything on matches I run. I think the bigger problem might be that we get carried away with how many competitors we can get through in a limited time period....so every time saving opportunity seems worthwhile. As it stands now we don't get enough shooters through our matches. We have far more shooters in Ontario than we can supply slots for in our matches. We are trying some things at Sharon and they are working. Last year we put 120 shooters through each of our Level II matches in 1 1/2 days. Most level II's in our province put 80 odd shooters through in 2 full days and some of the RO's pre-shoot the day before. I limit the number of stages and round count on each bay, we find 10 shooter squads ideal, but going over really bogs us down, as can too small of a squad where there aren't enough patchers. We often see bays too crowded (4-6 stages per bay including 2 long courses and 80+ rounds) and then to make up time the squad is too small to effectively patch all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tavman Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Edited Edited May 8, 2012 by tavman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tavman Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Ok guys... here is a really bad offender. When he does stuff like that we choose to berate and mock him instead of complaining about unsportsmanlike conduct.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmanP Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 In a vacuum you're completely right Flex. Knowing that Emanuel went to that stage with the specific intent to screw with the RO and see how long he could drag it out and mess with the rest of te shooters in the match? I'd drop him to the bottom of the squad. If he wanted to keep screwing around he's always welcome to arbitrate the DQ he'd receive from me. Regular shooter who takes awhile, it is what it is. Shooter who talks about how he's going to do it ahead of time, then posts video of it? Sorry, seems like the definition of Unsportsmanlike to me. Well luckily we're not all that high strung and can actually relax and have fun with what we're doing as well as each other. I mean lord forbid we actually get in a hurry to clear a fast stage and then wait for the next squad to clear their stage which was significantly longer. And let's for a minute ignore the fact that we all had to stay until after the match to set up for next weeks TacRifle match anyway. But I'm sure that had no bearing on anything and I should be DQ'd anyway for providing comic relief. Bad Emanuel for having fun and wasting a whole 45 seconds, bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelDown Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Good thing I wasn't running you. After the third draw you would have heard me quietly humming the Jeopardy tune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 At which point he could probably ask for a new RO if he feels he's being harassed... That might slow things down a bit....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Well, if not unsportsmanlike, I think that taking an inordinate amount of time to check your sight alignment 6 times and make sure your bullets are all facing out and turned 193 degrees on axis, is, at least, a bit disrespectful to other shooters. Yeah, it can be funny for about 20 seconds, but there are others who are anxious to shoot. I am not saying not to do your routine, just think of the people behind you waiting their turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'm sorry guys if this is really a problem where you shoot. The slowest guy around here is our local GM hotshot, Chris Keen, and he is usually ready in less than 30 seconds. Thanks Chris for not being one of "those guys". Let them take their time. Then if they are all show and no go you can enjoy that aspect of the whole show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmanP Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) We're all friends here and everyone knows everyone. That isn't even close to amount of fun we all have at each others expense. You guys should come out to shoot with us sometimes, it's as entertaining as spending Christmas day with family. Always a good time! Hell, you should have been there for the stage 1 debugging. Edited May 8, 2012 by EmanP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 We're all friends here and everyone knows everyone. That isn't even close to amount of fun we all have at each others expense. You guys should come out to shoot with us sometimes, it's as entertaining as spending Christmas day with family. Always a good time! Hell, you should have been there for the stage 1 debugging. Now, I know I really missed out on a good match this past week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I'm sorry guys if this is really a problem where you shoot. The slowest guy around here is our local GM hotshot, Chris Keen, and he is usually ready in less than 30 seconds. Thanks Chris for not being one of "those guys". Let them take their time. Then if they are all show and no go you can enjoy that aspect of the whole show. If it was legitimately him taking his time I'd be fine with it. It really doesn't matter to me and I know it will take longer to deal with the issue than to just let him run. However in this case it's a group of shooters who decided to have a contest to see how much they could screw with the RO's and see how long they could get away with LAMR. At that point it changes for me from a legitmately long LAMR to a deliberate attempt to interfere with match operations. Hence the potential DQ. That said, for just what was in the video it wouldn't have justified a DQ in my mind. I would have ULSC'd him and dropped him to the back of the order. The second time it happened, after the warning to knock it off, would have been a DQ from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Can you point me to the rule that you would use to DQ him? It's not unsportsmanlike, he is neither cheating nor bringing the sport into disrepute. He is complying with the instruction to load and make ready. Just because you don't like how he does it is not a valid reason to DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 The stage in the video was a short and sweet one that would be fast to reset. I'm guessing that all the extra time cost them was time to stand around at the next stage waiting for the squad ahead of them to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Can you point me to the rule that you would use to DQ him? It's not unsportsmanlike, he is neither cheating nor bringing the sport into disrepute. He is complying with the instruction to load and make ready. Just because you don't like how he does it is not a valid reason to DQ. 10.6.1 or 10.6.2. Both are lists of examples and not all inclusive. Deliberately and repeatedly interfering with match operations seems to fit the bill to a T to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 So can I DQ I competitor that takes to long to shoot each course of fire because I deem that to be interfering with the operation of the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 So can I DQ I competitor that takes to long to shoot each course of fire because I deem that to be interfering with the operation of the match? Why don't you read what I wrote. A deliberate attempt to screw with the match yes. The amount of time you take to shoot a stage no. You're partial logic makes about as much sense as me saying I would DQ someone for having an AD while reloading and you saying I wanted to DQ them for reloading. What I wrote was that I would not DQ for what was shown in the video. If the shooter continued to do it after direction from the range official, absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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