production gun with exposed hammer - stage start position

[cpa5oh]

I was at a USPSA practice at my local club and for the first time I shot a gun other than my Glock 34 - an EAA Witness.

I think when I read through the rule-book that I learned that, after get the "make ready" call from the starter, I've got to put a mag in, rack the slide, manually de-cock the hammer, put the safety on, then holster and wait for the "shooter are you ready" call. That's how I understand what I've read, but the part I'm not sure about is whether I really have to de-cock the hammer - and nobody at the USPSA practice was really sure if I had to do that or not...most thought that, since the gun doesn't have a de-cocker, that I don't have to start with the hammer down - just with the safety on. I'm hoping that everyone is correct - I don't like the idea of manually de-cocking right before I start...seems like that's asking for that hammer to slip from my thumb when I de-cock and send cartridge down range accidentally.

Could someone please clarify whether I've got to manually de-cock the hammer?

Thanks,

Dan

[sfchorn]

Yes, you must manually decock the hammer. Here is the rule:

APPENDIX D4 — Production Division

Special conditions:— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

There are several threads on the forum about this very topic.

[Ronnie j]

Production= hammer down

Limited 10 or limited = hammer cocked safety on

[StephenG]

And to add to what Ronnie said... In production with the hammer decocked the safety does NOT have to be on.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[cpa5oh]

Thank you for the clarification, guys! I had read that rule and frankly was hoping I wasn't understanding things right...but I guess it isn't so bad given the safety doesn't have to be on. The rule does kinda put the CZ's and other guns with an exposed hammer at a disadvantage...trigger on my new CZ feels great...in single action...double action it's gonna be hard to keep it online.

Only thing that is scary is the possibility of the hammer slipping on my thumb and sending off an unintentional shot...

[SLM]

Practice (unloaded) a lot and it isn't that hard. Don't try and do it one handed. Pinch the hammer between your thumb and weak hand trigger finger, pull it back slightly, pull the trigger with your trigger finger and hold it back, gently lower hammer. Lots of Production division shooters are doing the same thing and there are few ND's.

[Skydiver]

Thank you for the clarification, guys! I had read that rule and frankly was hoping I wasn't understanding things right...but I guess it isn't so bad given the safety doesn't have to be on. The rule does kinda put the CZ's and other guns with an exposed hammer at a disadvantage...trigger on my new CZ feels great...in single action...double action it's gonna be hard to keep it online.

Only thing that is scary is the possibility of the hammer slipping on my thumb and sending off an unintentional shot...

Off topic:

I saw a SP01 with a 5.25 lbs DA trigger in the classifieds yesterday.

I can't find the thread right now that included video. There's a few basic techniques for lowering the hammer:

1. Pinch the hammer between weak hand thumb and forefinger, or thumb and side of knuckle of forefinger. Pull the trigger, and then ease the hammer down.

2. Put weak hand thumb between hammer and slide. (Some people use a pinky finger.) Pull the trigger, and then slowly move the thumb up towards the sights to let the hammer down. It'll drop the last tiny bit, but there is not enough energy in the hammer spring at that point to activate the firing pin.

3. Put strong hand thumb on hammer. Pull the trigger, and then slowly ease down the hammer with the thumb. (I don't recommend this BTW, but I've seen it done.)

Back on topic:

I misread the OP. The RO did the right thing and ensured that the shooter started with the hammer down. No procedural or bump to open, when the shooter loaded the magazine, and then racked the slide. The shooter could proceed to shoot SA from that point because it was after the start signal.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Practice (unloaded) a lot and it isn't that hard. Don't try and do it one handed. Pinch the hammer between your thumb and weak hand trigger finger, pull it back slightly, pull the trigger with your trigger finger and hold it back, gently lower hammer. Lots of Production division shooters are doing the same thing and there are few ND's.

+1. I've had an AD only once out of hundreds (thousands?) of starts. It was because I had break free on my hands from my magazines. That incident made me change my "Make Ready" routine to: load magazine, then rack the slide, then wipe weak hand fingers on my pants, and then lower the hammer. I also check that there is no excess oil on my hammer when I gun up at the safety area.

[EkuJustice]

The first DA shot may be a slight disadvantage but the nice single action pull is an advantage. In IPSC (not uspsa) which has a minmal pull for the first shot, the CZ is an advantage since glock, M&P etc all shoot the heavier pull for every shot. The CZ guys shoot it one shot then a much lighter pull for the remainder of the shots

[cpa5oh]

I was practicing putting the hammer down and noticed something...

If I release the trigger before the hammer goes all the way down, it doesn't quite go all the way down. Close, but not all the way. The trigger pull is about the same as with the hammer all the way down - double action and heavy. So there doesn't seem to be any performance advantage while there is a safety advantage - no chance of me sending a round downrange unexpectedly. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

As for the trigger...I'm looking at a kit from cajungunworks that'll hopefully help significantly. If that doesn't do well maybe I could try a Bill Springfield trigger job - though there may not be any benefit to that with the kit.

Thanks for the replies they have been extremely helpful.

[sperman]

I was practicing putting the hammer down and noticed something...

If I release the trigger before the hammer goes all the way down, it doesn't quite go all the way down. Close, but not all the way. The trigger pull is about the same as with the hammer all the way down - double action and heavy. So there doesn't seem to be any performance advantage while there is a safety advantage - no chance of me sending a round downrange unexpectedly. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

The rules say the hammer must be all the way down.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

[CZinSC]

I was practicing putting the hammer down and noticed something...

If I release the trigger before the hammer goes all the way down, it doesn't quite go all the way down. Close, but not all the way. The trigger pull is about the same as with the hammer all the way down - double action and heavy. So there doesn't seem to be any performance advantage while there is a safety advantage - no chance of me sending a round downrange unexpectedly. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

The rules say the hammer must be all the way down.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

What Scott said...all the way down. You're referring to half cock, and no, you cannot start in the half cock position.

As for Cajun's trigger kit, be careful, one of there modifications is not legal for production use. The extreme reach reduction kit is not legal because it replaces the trigger with one that has an overtravel screw. Since the screw is visible from the outside, it is not a legal modification. ( No problem with Limited and L-10, just not production ).

[Skydiver]

I was practicing putting the hammer down and noticed something...

If I release the trigger before the hammer goes all the way down, it doesn't quite go all the way down. Close, but not all the way. The trigger pull is about the same as with the hammer all the way down - double action and heavy. So there doesn't seem to be any performance advantage while there is a safety advantage - no chance of me sending a round downrange unexpectedly. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

The rules say the hammer must be all the way down.

8.1.2.2 "Double action" – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

Just to muddy the waters a little bit, there is this NROI ruling:

Q: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd?

A: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

It muddies the waters because on some guns (some Sigs?), it seems like using the decocker just lowers the hammer down to somewhere between fully down and half-cock.

And to further muddy the waters, there is a Korean gun out there where you can cock the hammer, and then just push the hammer forward to have it fully down, but the trigger pull is closer to SA rather than DA. (I just can't find the thread now.) I suspect that in the case of that gun, DNROI will again treat the word "or" as "and" when reading 8.1.2.2.

In general though, if you're gun has a decocker, use it. If not, manually lower the hammer fully down.

[GrumpyOne]

When lowering the hammer, why rush? You aren't on the clock, and the RO won't start you until its done, so take your time, do it right, and there won't be an ND or AD.

[Walküre]

As for Cajun's trigger kit, be careful, one of there modifications is not legal for production use. The extreme reach reduction kit is not legal because it replaces the trigger with one that has an overtravel screw. Since the screw is visible from the outside, it is not a legal modification. ( No problem with Limited and L-10, just not production ).

Pre-travel, not overtravel. They install a pre-travel screw in the trigger; overtravel screws can already be had (perfectly Production-legally) by using a CZ 85 Combat trigger.

IIRC, they may also reprofile the trigger, which itself wouldn't be legal even without the visible pre-travel screw. (Though they may just be using the silly "thin" trigger that new CZs come with.)

[ima45dv8]

I was practicing putting the hammer down and noticed something...

If I release the trigger before the hammer goes all the way down, it doesn't quite go all the way down. Close, but not all the way. The trigger pull is about the same as with the hammer all the way down - double action and heavy. So there doesn't seem to be any performance advantage while there is a safety advantage - no chance of me sending a round downrange unexpectedly. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

The rules say the hammer must be all the way down.

8.1.2.2 "Double action" – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

Just to muddy the waters a little bit, there is this NROI ruling:

Q: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd?

A: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

It muddies the waters because on some guns (some Sigs?), it seems like using the decocker just lowers the hammer down to somewhere between fully down and half-cock.

And to further muddy the waters, there is a Korean gun out there where you can cock the hammer, and then just push the hammer forward to have it fully down, but the trigger pull is closer to SA rather than DA. (I just can't find the thread now.) I suspect that in the case of that gun, DNROI will again treat the word "or" as "and" when reading 8.1.2.2.

In general though, if you're gun has a decocker, use it. If not, manually lower the hammer fully down.

It's very simple and not muddy in the least, unless you want it to be. I guess it's true what they say about people seeking mud will find it (someone does say that, don't they? "They" should).

If the gun has a decoker, use it and where the hammer lands is where it lands.

If lowering it manually, it must be lowered all of the way down.

[Philo_Beddoe]

If the gun has a decoker, use it and where the hammer lands is where it lands.

If lowering it manually, it must be lowered all of the way down.

This

Edited May 1, 2012 by Philo_Beddoe

[Skydiver]

Mark is right. It doesn't have to be complicated.

On the other hand, for those seeking to roll around in the mud, here's the old thread about the Daewoo: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=140328

[gunguru]

I use a 3 finger process to lower my hammer.

I squeeze the hammer between thumb and middle finger, and I put my trigger finger in front of the hammer, by doing so, if the hammer slip, It will "fall" on my finger, not on the firing pin.

[Babaganoosh]

Always go for the easier shot first when shooting a da/sa action gun. You would think its obvious but many people dont do it. practice in DA as well.