Will the Shake-Up at the Top Amount to Anything?

[Ben Stoeger]

I really don't think that the competition market drives the larger marketplace.

Glocks are popular in competition because there were already very popular when production division came about.

The flipside of the coin is CZ. CZ is much more popular for IPSC applications than it is in the larger marketplace. I don't think you are going to see the CZ platform in many duty holsters just because it is a popular competition gun.

I think the best marketing that a sponsored shooter can do is to spread the word about a new product. I had never heard of Caracal before I read the press release about JJ. I had never heard of Frog Lube before Rudy spammed facebook with it. Those messages got me to at least do a google search and figure out what was what.

Beyond that, I don't think sponsored shooters have much of an effect. Can I convince people to switch to a Beretta platform just by winning matches? I doubt it, USPSA shooters aren't stupid enough.

[gose]

I don't see Production becoming the predominant division at the highest levels of competition. It may become predominant by shear numbers with all the new shooters coming into the sport.

Why not, it's pretty much what happened in IPSC?

Production was the largest division at the WS in Greece last year.

[pjb45]

Glock's marketing program is premier!

Like their guns or not, they have done a superior job of marketing their guns throughout the world. Dave, Jessie, and Randy were a part of that program. They made a contribution to Glock's success.

GSSF is another component of their success.

I do not own a Glock nor do I expect to purchase one but I can appreciate their success.

I am in favor of anyone who can make a living in this sport.

I wish I knew more about how the Clay Sports are run. Aspects of it may be beneficial to Action Shooting Sports.

I talked with a Clay shooter at SMM3G, he had >8,000 registered birds last year! I think Remington and Federal offer a yearly rebate on their purchased ammo.

Bottom Line: Good for TGO, TT, Max, KC, and .... anyone else. This is a free market economy, let them go where the money is......

[shootingchef]

I don't see Production becoming the predominant division at the highest levels of competition. It may become predominant by shear numbers with all the new shooters coming into the sport.

Why not, it's pretty much what happened in IPSC?

Production was the largest division at the WS in Greece last year.

Not due to popularity but due to all the regulations on gun ownership. the rest of the world is much like New York and Kalifornia, high caps are a no no.

[gose]

I don't see Production becoming the predominant division at the highest levels of competition. It may become predominant by shear numbers with all the new shooters coming into the sport.

Why not, it's pretty much what happened in IPSC?

Production was the largest division at the WS in Greece last year.

Not due to popularity but due to all the regulations on gun ownership. the rest of the world is much like New York and Kalifornia, high caps are a no no.

Really? I dont know of a single country in Europe that has a restriction on mag capacity for handguns. I hvent lived, or shot, much in Africa, Asia or South America so not really sure what the deal is there, but Canada and Australia are pretty much the only countries I know of with those restriction.

If you look at the trend, Open and Standard are decreasing and Production is increasing in size and this has been the case for several years now. Also, IPSC production didnt have a mag restriction until fairly recently and its now 15 rounds, not 10.

So I beg to disagree, I dont think restrictions had much to do with it, if at all.

Edited April 26, 2012 by gose

[Skydiver]

I don't see Production becoming the predominant division at the highest levels of competition. It may become predominant by shear numbers with all the new shooters coming into the sport.

Why not, it's pretty much what happened in IPSC?

Production was the largest division at the WS in Greece last year.

Not due to popularity but due to all the regulations on gun ownership. the rest of the world is much like New York and Kalifornia, high caps are a no no.

I don't get what you are driving at...

Prior to 2010, IPSC production was stuff as many bullets as you can in the factory magazine. It was the 2010 addendums to the rulebook that brought around the 15 round limit to IPSC Production to stop the arms race that was going on. I bet most people in NY and CA would be happy if they could legally go up to 15 instead of their current 10 round limit.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

And back on topic... On and off I see or hear questions like: "I'm thinking of getting into competition. I'm thinking of buying a gun just for that. What do the top shooters use?"

Granted that this question often comes from newbies, but it does come up. I try to tell them to bring what they currently own to the matches and see what other people are shooting, as well as ask to try them out later after the match has ended. This often puts force behind the premise noted above where people tend to buy guns that are common locally because of that hope that they can leverage local resources in case they need help in terms of parts or dealing with issues with the gun.

[shootingchef]

I agree with the local attraction for pistols. there are lots of SV's in our club.

[Tim/GA]

2012 Area 6 last weekend: 349 total shooters, 82 Limited, 86 Open, 119 Production

2011 Area 6: 349 total, 103 Limited, 104 Open, 81 Production

Just 2 matches, not near enough to set a trend but quite a swing anyway.

I have put together a Limited Glock for 3 gun and thinking of shooting it for awhile in USPSA. Love how it fits my hand with the undercuts done and magwell, but I am torn- don't really want to leave Production. What are you supposed to do while moving on a stage since you don't always have to be reloading? Not to mention how boring it must be to just worry about breaking down the stage according to the movement and targets and not the reloads

[Rambo]

And back on topic... On and off I see or hear questions like: "I'm thinking of getting into competition. I'm thinking of buying a gun just for that. What do the top shooters use?"

Granted that this question often comes from newbies, but it does come up. I try to tell them to bring what they currently own to the matches and see what other people are shooting, as well as ask to try them out later after the match has ended. This often puts force behind the premise noted above where people tend to buy guns that are common locally because of that hope that they can leverage local resources in case they need help in terms of parts or dealing with issues with the gun.

"What do the top shooters use?"

I think that it is interesting that 'in general' we frown on this question. Perhaps this isn't a valid analogy but I consider USPSA a sport. As a sport, aspects of it should be comparable to other sports (albiet in this case I'm using more established sports).

Have you ever walked into a sporting goods store and looked at the gear? 99% of the products have a star player's name on it or at least of picture of the star player using it. Derek Jeter gloves, Ken Griffey Jr bats, Kobe Bryant shoes, Larry Fitzgerald gloves, Rafael Nadal racquets, the list goes on and on (and don't even get me started on the jerseys)... For better or worse, people aspire to be like the great ones and having the same gear is the closest most people will ever get.

As the shooting sports continue to develop and get more media attention it will be interesting to see how/if things change.

I know personally...I try and keep an eye on what the best are doing...You never know when you might learn something new

[lugnut]

You guys are just missing something obvious. Production is a fun division and it offers so many options to all levels of shooters. It's challenging in different ways than the other divisions. I think it's great that some of the top shooters will be shooting production. Maybe money drove them to where they are... so what? I bet if it doesn't work for them they will just move on to something else.... and the sun will rise another day....

Edited April 27, 2012 by lugnut

[shootingchef]

3 gun is the next sunrise.

[Supermoto]

3 gun is the next sunrise.

3 gun is for shooters that can't win at USPSA.

The money is in production because that is where the most guns are sold. Simple as that. If Open guns were marketed to [inappropriate reference removed by Moderator], then that is where the money would be... but its hard for them to come up with the money, living in their moms basement playing video games, so they shoot production instead

Edited April 27, 2012 by ima45dv8
see above

[latech15]

3 gun is the next sunrise.

Amen to that one. It is where the money is.

[shootingchef]

is there a USPSA pistol match that pays $5000 for 1st place?

[alpha-charlie]

I spoke with Max and he will be shooting Single Stack at all the Area matches this year.

JT

Of course he is JT. And you, me and the rest of the shooting world knows why. Max shoots for Sig and Sig is pushing their 1911 MAX. Therefore, you're shooting single stack this year Max.

[Neomet]

I doubt many, if any USPSA folks will be swayed to switch divisions based upon who is shooting it. Gun brands yes, divisions no. There are usually very specific reasons why we choose the division(s) we shoot and rarely is it about there being a great shooter in that division. Every divisions Thundergods that we all admire. Taurus could go bonkers and offer full rides to all the top shooters to shoot revo and I would not bet on a huge shift to wheelguns at matches.

[lugnut]

I doubt many, if any USPSA folks will be swayed to switch divisions based upon who is shooting it. Gun brands yes, divisions no. There are usually very specific reasons why we choose the division(s) we shoot and rarely is it about there being a great shooter in that division. Every divisions Thundergods that we all admire. Taurus could go bonkers and offer full rides to all the top shooters to shoot revo and I would not bet on a huge shift to wheelguns at matches.

Another angle. Maybe the companies are hiring the big names to help represent their products AND provide feedback as to what changes need to be made in their products???

Some of you guys make it sound like these guys are sinning for what they are doing.... I'd love to do what they do. Shoot for money... sweet!!!!

Edited April 27, 2012 by lugnut

[alpha-charlie]

.. I'd love to do what they do. Shoot for money... sweet!!!!

To each his own, but no thanks. By getting paid to shoot that means it's your job. And by making it your job that means you have a boss. And a boss wants his employees to do what he wants, how he wants it and when he wants it. If a big company comes out with a new gun legal for production, SS, etc. there's a good chance you'll have to be competing with that gun whether you like it or not. There's a great story and quote by one of the greatest shooters ever about fully sponsored shooters:

" I was greedy and I took their money. Not long after that a shooter approached me and thanked me for writing Practical Shooting, and then, with a twinkle in his eye said, "Im happy for you that you are being paid to do what you love, but I couldnt do it. I love shooting too much." He knew. Sponsorship is not what you think. As soon as you are being paid to do something you love, everything changes. If you havent been there I know its hard to believe. But trust me, its true. I clearly remember the determination and drive I used to have. I havent felt that in a long time. Not since I have been paid to shoot. "

Edited April 27, 2012 by alpha-charlie

[lugnut]

.. I'd love to do what they do. Shoot for money... sweet!!!!

To each his own, but no thanks. By getting paid to shoot that means it's your job. And by making it your job that means you have a boss. And a boss wants his employees to do what he wants, how he wants it and when he wants it. If a big company comes out with a new gun legal for production, SS, etc. there's a good chance you'll have to be competing with that gun whether you like it or not. There's a great story and quote by one of the greatest shooters ever about fully sponsored shooters:

" I was greedy and I took their money. Not long after that a shooter approached me and thanked me for writing Practical Shooting, and then, with a twinkle in his eye said, "I’m happy for you that you are being paid to do what you love, but I couldn’t do it. I love shooting too much." He knew. Sponsorship is not what you think. As soon as you are being paid to do something you love, everything changes. If you haven’t been there I know it’s hard to believe. But trust me, it’s true. I clearly remember the determination and drive I used to have. I haven’t felt that in a long time. Not since I have been paid to shoot. "

Fair enough.. but the shooter and the boss can work well together or not.... when not they can part ways.

[carinab]

3 gun is the next sunrise.

3 gun is for shooters that can't win at USPSA.

The money is in production because that is where the most guns are sold. Simple as that. If Open guns were marketed to [inappropriate reference removed by Moderator], then that is where the money would be... but its hard for them to come up with the money, living in their moms basement playing video games, so they shoot production instead

Wha-huh? I'm kinda sure that Taran Butler, Voigt, and Horner (and a bunch of other 3Gr's) have won at USPSA. And the money in pistol is no where close to what it once was. 3G is where some of the top USPSA shooters have gone because there is money to be had there. Another plus for production may be that 9mm is the caliber of choice in 3Gun...Since there is no major/minor scoring, it's capacity that is key. You could do both 3G and USPSA without any equipment change.

Edited April 27, 2012 by ima45dv8
see above

[alpha-charlie]

Fair enough.. but the shooter and the boss can work well together or not.... when not they can part ways.

Absolutley. But what an incredible distraction and added stress load it must bring. Obviously they know what they're getting into and it's their choice, but is it really worth it??

[Loves2Shoot]

Or was the move to deal with a shift that has already occurred? Cost of ammo, being able to shoot multiple disciples, lower cost of entry for new shooters, these are a few things we here from customers on a regular basis.

[lugnut]

Fair enough.. but the shooter and the boss can work well together or not.... when not they can part ways.

Absolutley. But what an incredible distraction and added stress load it must bring. Obviously they know what they're getting into and it's their choice, but is it really worth it??

I will never really know.... But I suspect that some of those shooters would put stress on themselves regardless... they already have the drive to be the best in most cases...

[tackdr1ver]

[inappropriate references removed by Moderator]

I do have to say that I believe it is true: Stamp the word "Tactical" or "Operator" on the label of any product from actual firearms to sunglasses and the internet armchair ninjas show up in droves with fists full of cash to buy it.

As for shooters changing flavors & divisions: I think it's a good thing whether it is sponsor money driven or simply out of wanting a change. I think it keeps the wheels greased. After all: if nobody changed things up back in the day we'd all still be shooting single stack iron sight 38 supers with comps on them. And I also believe it is fantastic that there are manufacturers willing to throw money back into our sport, we all benefit in the long run!

I shoot Limited now and I will continue to shoot limited until I hit either M or GM. After that, I will likely try production or single stack for a while. As for top guys making it harder to move up in any one division: I'm looking forward to the challenge. I just love this sport and I am going to be the best I can be, or die trying.

Edited April 27, 2012 by ima45dv8
see above