Nik Habicht Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I've always preferred the standard of ... "The start position is (X), as demonstrated by the RO. Granted, this generally works better with dedicated RO staff, but it does tend to eliminate nonsensical gaming of the start position. When the shooter tries to stray too far from the demonstrated start position, the RO simply states "That's not how I demonstrated it." I'm all for freestyle ... But freestyle dosen't really start until the beep. Freestyle starts before the beep. (Freestyle doesn't start until the beep -- I've heard that sentiment mostly on the IPSC forum....) The only relevant question is "Is the shooter compliant with what the WSB says?" If the answer is no, then you correct..... In other words, if folks want identical start positions, then they should build their stage and write the WSB in a manner that accomplishes that..... If the start position is written as "fingertips touching XXs" then I'll find the most advantageous body positioning I can find that allows me to be compliant with the requirement to get the tips of my fingers on the XXs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2 If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should. JT Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand. +1..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2 If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should. JT Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand. The point some folks are making is if you have one foot inside and one foot outside the shooting area while shooting, the rules say you are outside the shooting area. So, if you have one in and one out at the starting position, you are also outside the shooting area. The WSB said outside, so that requirement of the start position is met. I agree with you to have the RM make the final call. After that, roll with it. You are correct -- however "while shooting" and "assumes the start position" are two different things, and the requirements for while shooting refer to touching something on the other side of a line, so I can see the applicability of the argument above.... Think of it this way -- the faultline doesn't exist, in much the same way that the perf doesn't on the target. Both are artificial constructs... Standing on a faultline is neither in or out -- we judge "in or out" by part of the body touching the ground (outside the fault line, while shooting). Since the start position specifies starting outside the FFZ, clearly parts of the body may (really: are required to) touch the ground outside the fault lines. Therefore the foot placed inside the faultlines, is faulting the lines, and the RO should not start the shooter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2 If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should. JT Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand. The Xs are inside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I normally just watch these threads for the first few pages and don't post, but this one I find interesting since I shot the stage. As Is said above, I liked the way it was stated and the way the RO crew handled it. A lot of assumptions are being made, some due to the stage diagram earlier in the post. Please realize that was not the stage in question. Assumptions I have seen: -marks inside or outside of the fault lines- they were ON the fault lines. Since the fault lines are inside the shooting area (see above about being able to stand on them), I guess the marks were inside. -Lots of assumptions about the stage designer's intent. Only that person would know, but in seeing many others from Jack Suber he uses very specific start positions at times and not so specific at others. -It was better to shoot the right side first. Maybe for some, but in the limited capacity divisions it seemed to be the consensus that left was best first. Again, freedom to decide and shoot what you want. -RO needs to be called. How do we know if the RM had not already made a ruling or clarification to the RO crew. My assumptions is that had been done. There are others here, but one thing I have noted were rule numbers not being cited in arguments against the "gaming" start positions. In absence of a rule that prohibits it, then the letter of the WSB was met- time to shoot. And again, I felt the RO crew were just right in the way they handled the stage. Read the WSB to us, answered general questions and let the shooters work out what they wanted to do. And yes, as shooters we did discuss they wording while working out the stage and still you saw a number of different start positions- just like the rest of the stage was different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 FWIW, I was one of the RO's working with Scott on this stage, and I believe he made the right call. If the stage designer wanted both of your feel outside the shooting area, then he should have stated that in the WSB. Otherwise, show me a rule that says one foot in and one foot out is NOT outside the shooting area. If they wanted you facing uprange, it should have been in the WSB. If they wanted your heels on the outside of the fault line, it should have been in the WSB. None of these were in the WSB. So until someone shows me a rule contradicting the call, I think Scott got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2 If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should. JT Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand. The point some folks are making is if you have one foot inside and one foot outside the shooting area while shooting, the rules say you are outside the shooting area. So, if you have one in and one out at the starting position, you are also outside the shooting area. The WSB said outside, so that requirement of the start position is met. I agree with you to have the RM make the final call. After that, roll with it. You are correct -- however "while shooting" and "assumes the start position" are two different things, and the requirements for while shooting refer to touching something on the other side of a line, so I can see the applicability of the argument above.... Think of it this way -- the faultline doesn't exist, in much the same way that the perf doesn't on the target. Both are artificial constructs... Standing on a faultline is neither in or out -- we judge "in or out" by part of the body touching the ground (outside the fault line, while shooting). Since the start position specifies starting outside the FFZ, clearly parts of the body may (really: are required to) touch the ground outside the fault lines. Therefore the foot placed inside the faultlines, is faulting the lines, and the RO should not start the shooter.... So if I am standing with both feet on the fault line and not touching the ground with either foot, am I inside or outside the shooting area? Or in Limbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 So if I am standing with both feet on the fault line and not touching the ground with either foot, am I inside or outside the shooting area? Or in Limbo? You are in. Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area. 2.2.1.2 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines are used to define the limits of the shooting area(s). (See Rule 10.2.1) Fault line is part of the shooting area. So if you are standing on it, with feet not touching either side, you are deemed inside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2 If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should. JT Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand. The point some folks are making is if you have one foot inside and one foot outside the shooting area while shooting, the rules say you are outside the shooting area. So, if you have one in and one out at the starting position, you are also outside the shooting area. The WSB said outside, so that requirement of the start position is met. I agree with you to have the RM make the final call. After that, roll with it. You are correct -- however "while shooting" and "assumes the start position" are two different things, and the requirements for while shooting refer to touching something on the other side of a line, so I can see the applicability of the argument above.... Think of it this way -- the faultline doesn't exist, in much the same way that the perf doesn't on the target. Both are artificial constructs... Standing on a faultline is neither in or out -- we judge "in or out" by part of the body touching the ground (outside the fault line, while shooting). Since the start position specifies starting outside the FFZ, clearly parts of the body may (really: are required to) touch the ground outside the fault lines. Therefore the foot placed inside the faultlines, is faulting the lines, and the RO should not start the shooter.... So if I am standing with both feet on the fault line and not touching the ground with either foot, am I inside or outside the shooting area? Or in Limbo? You are not faulting the line while shooting -- so no procedurals. You are also not within the shooting area -- so I would start you, if you wanted to balance up there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 So if I am standing with both feet on the fault line and not touching the ground with either foot, am I inside or outside the shooting area? Or in Limbo? You are in. Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area. 2.2.1.2 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines are used to define the limits of the shooting area(s). (See Rule 10.2.1) Fault line is part of the shooting area. So if you are standing on it, with feet not touching either side, you are deemed inside the shooting area. Fault lines define the limits of the shooting area -- no where does it say that the fault line is part of the shooting area. (It is not.....) 10.2.1 specifically asses penalties for faulting the line -- i.e. touching the ground on the other side. The fault line is still an artificial construct that isn't really there, from a rules perspective.... In the physical world we play in, it's usually fairly easy to stand on fault line -- because most clubs use 1x4 or 2x4 as materials..... What if faultline were triangular though, with the base on the ground and the tip facing up -- of the proper height. Be a lot harder to balance on top of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Some of you are thinking about lines in terms of being "in" or being "out." I can't find that reference in 10.2.1. I can find a reference to touching beyond the line..... What if we thought of it as simply faulting a line.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 To throw this at y'all... When you have one foot outside the shooting are you are not "standing outside the shooting area;" you are simply faulting. If are standing with both feet inside the shooting area you are standing inside the shooting are. You would not be standing outside the shooting area. If you are standing with one foot inside the shooting area and one foot outside the shooting area you would be standing with one foot inside the shooting area and one foot inside the shooting area and one foot outside the shooting area. You would not be standing outside the shooting area. If are standing with both feet outside the shooting area you would standing outside the shooting area. There is a difference between gaming and disingenuously twisting logic and language to claim you are doing something you are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 The fault line is within the shooting area. I don't need to have ever persons personal whims satisfied when a perfectly reasonable person can grasp that you only fault when you touch the ground outside the fault lines. Since you only fault when you touch the ground outside the fault line the fault line must be part of the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 This thread reminds me of the question I've been dying to ask: why did we end up having to have "must" and "shall" defined as "mandatory" in the glossary? I mean seriously???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 The fault line is within the shooting area. I don't need to have ever persons personal whims satisfied when a perfectly reasonable person can grasp that you only fault when you touch the ground outside the fault lines. Since you only fault when you touch the ground outside the fault line the fault line must be part of the shooting area. That's not what the rules say though..... In a practical sense, you're correct -- because the alternative would be to assess a penalty when the side of a foot or the toes merely touch the side of a fault line..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 The fault line is within the shooting area. I don't need to have ever persons personal whims satisfied when a perfectly reasonable person can grasp that you only fault when you touch the ground outside the fault lines. Since you only fault when you touch the ground outside the fault line the fault line must be part of the shooting area. That's not what the rules say though..... In a practical sense, you're correct -- because the alternative would be to assess a penalty when the side of a foot or the toes merely touch the side of a fault line..... It's exactly what the rules say. You are not faulting unless you are touching the ground outside the shooting area. The fault lines define the shooting area. Ergo, the fault line is the shooting area, the ground outside the shooting area is not the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) So if I am standing with both feet on the fault line and not touching the ground with either foot, am I inside or outside the shooting area? Or in Limbo? You are in. Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area. 2.2.1.2 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines are used to define the limits of the shooting area(s). (See Rule 10.2.1) Fault line is part of the shooting area. So if you are standing on it, with feet not touching either side, you are deemed inside the shooting area. Fault lines define the limits of the shooting area -- no where does it say that the fault line is part of the shooting area. (It is not.....) 10.2.1 specifically asses penalties for faulting the line -- i.e. touching the ground on the other side. The fault line is still an artificial construct that isn't really there, from a rules perspective.... In the physical world we play in, it's usually fairly easy to stand on fault line -- because most clubs use 1x4 or 2x4 as materials..... What if faultline were triangular though, with the base on the ground and the tip facing up -- of the proper height. Be a lot harder to balance on top of it.... Actually the rules make it quite clear the fault lines a physical construct: 2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines. Here Fault Lines and Shooting Boxes are on par with physcial barriers, with the artifical construct of the off limits area being seperated identified. The off limits area is artifical sense it is understood in the mind to be a forbidden area, though you could enter you must not. Though artifical constructs can define, a fault line is not understood singularly in the mind, it is a real thing, it has a physcial and visual pressence. See below: 2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the surface is recommended. Here the artificial construct is defined with a minimum thickness, a material, is fixed firmly in place, and has a physical and visual reference. We can't do that with a artificial construct. It must be a physcial construct since it has a minimum size and physical as well as visual reference. 2.2.1.2 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines are used to define the limits of the shooting area(s). (See Rule 10.2.1) Fault line physically define the shooting area because they both define the shooting are and have a physical presence. Thus not artificial. 2.2.1.3 Fault Lines extending rearward (uprange) should be a minimum of 3 feet in length, and unless otherwise stated in the written stage briefing, are deemed to extend rearward to infinity. Here we have the physcial construct beign given the right to become a artificial (if not theoretical) construct by allowing it to be "deemed to extend rearward to infinity." Edited April 8, 2012 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I remember a stage at the 2010 Nationals where you started outside the shooting area, which caught me (procedural). There was a target right at the start in which you would break the 180 if you took it anywhere besides just across the line. Yeah, definitely a mind trick stage, and yeah it caught me. Not saying this is a bad thing though, it's part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete68 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Just shot a local match this weekend & the start position stated in the WSB only said "start outside of the shooting area". I saw a shooter with one foot fully in the shooting area & the other on the fault line with their toes touching outside of the shooting area as their start position. Shooter merely needed to slightly shift toes form outside shooting area to inside shooting area at start signal. This start position was an advantage on three close targets at the start. RO or MD could not produce a rule # against the shooter's desired start position & let him shoot. I tried consulting the USPSA rulebook for info on this topic & was unable to find anything specific about said start position. But I was able to find a good thread here on this very topic. Thank you. Good discussion & some good opinions. Maybe revisit this topic? So is the general consensus here think the WSB needs to more definitive about the actual start position? IMHO the WSB at my local match needed to be more definitive about the start position. I do not know the intentions of the stage designer. But I think the shooter complied with the WSB. My logic is if you were to fire a shot with a foot outside of the shooting area during a COF, you receive a procedural penalty for being OUTSIDE of shooting area. So if your start position is with one foot in & one foot out of shooting area you are OUTSIDE of the shooting area. As a RO I want to know the correct call/rule to deal with potential issues or questions. As a gamer I want to know so I can capitalize on any possible advantage in the future. And I am mostly definitely a gamer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 The point some folks are making is if you have one foot inside and one foot outside the shooting area while shooting, the rules say you are outside the shooting area. So, if you have one in and one out at the starting position, you are also outside the shooting area. The WSB said outside, so that requirement of the start position is met. That seems reasonable to me. If one doesn't like that, one can modify the wsb to say 'completely outside' or 'both feet outside'. I'm not convinced that it makes that much difference. Seems like most good shooter can present the gun to the target in about the same amount of time regardless of whether they stand still, move one foot, or move both feet 1 step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Here is the Start Position from the stage in question. Standing outside shooting area, heels touching marks, hands relaxed at sides. I was CRO on the stage, and will be happy to offer insight on how the decision was made, but I would like to see some opinions first. The only way to have heels on marks outside the shooting area is to be facing uprange or sideways, away from the shooting area. Not sure how one foot in, one foot out can be construed by that description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lef-t Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Here's the WSB for reference. I set it up to give the shooter options and while I saw various approaches (some comical as shooters balanced on one foot with the other hovering the shooting area) I was not in the squad with RePete to join in the discussion at the time. I wish I had a clear intention as the stage designer other than to make the shooter think and get creative. I guess I accomplished that, but I hadn't considered the one-in-one-out option at the time. If I were RO I wouldn't have started the shooter because if you're partially inside the shooting area then you're not outside. The MD submitted the question to NROI so I'm curious to see what they say. Edited July 6, 2015 by lef-t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I am just not buying this snake oil. The WSB stated outside the shooting area. I don't think we need a rule to specify what outside means. However, in case anyone is unaware, Webster defines it as: 1) a place or region beyond an enclosure or boundary 2) the area farthest from a specified point of reference 3) an outer side or surface 4) an outer manifestation 5) the extreme limit of a guess #1 would clearly cover that this. If it says outside, then it is the shooter beyond the boundary of the shooting area. My gosh! The logic about "if I shoot, I get the penalty" is pretty flawed also. We are talking about a starting position, not running the COF. The rule never says you being outside, it just says touching the ground or object beyond the fault line. Post #37 above has it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Another way to look at "outside the shooting area" is that if (during the course of fire) a shooter has one foot on the ground outside the marked shooting area (and takes a shot), they are considered "out" and incur a procedural. So if one foot out means out, then I can see the gamer way of looking at the WSB (and would probably do it if I thought of it). If the intention of the WSB was to have the shooter start with both feet out of the shooting area, facing in a certain direction, it should have said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Just say no and refuse to start course. End of problem. Edited July 7, 2015 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now