molson Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Hello everyone, I am once again back to the forums vast base of knowledge to find out what the call is. Recently I was at a club match and a shooter had a squib. Fortunately, the shooter recognized this as well as the RO and was stopped. The gun was cleared of the magazine and ammo (of course). Slide was locked back and a pencil was inserted into the barrel. Indeed there was a projectile in the barrel. Here is the question: Is it OK for the RO to have the competitor holster the gun and then move to the safe area and clear out the projectile unattended? A possible rule to consider is: 5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13). But, is this really a loaded handgun? There is no loaded cartridge in the gun, and no magazine in the mag well. The competitor went through the "If Clear, Hammer down, Holster" command sequence. So indeed, the gun did not go bang and also was determined to be clear. Other rules to consider: 2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories. 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). In the above stated rules, the safety ares is the place to fix the gun without question. Also, does a bullet that is only the projectile and not an assembled cartridge, dummy round, snap cap, or empty case hit against rule 2.4.2? I have been in this game for a number of years and am an RO. As such, I am always learning, and it seems that something new is presented every now and then to draw a question about the correct way to handle situations. This is just one of those that I am contemplating as to the correct way to handle it in the future. I was not the RO in this event, and I am not questioning the way it was handled right or wrong. Just wondering what you out there think. Molson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Read your post...you answered your own question. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 After the RO determined it was a squib and the gun was made safe, I see no need for the RO to accompany the competitor to the Safety Area, nor is the competitor breaking any rules repairing his/her gun there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddox Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I do not see it as a "loaded" handgun because there is nothing in the chamber (live round, snap cap, training round, etc.). The next question is did he sweep himself when using a pencil to check for a squib. 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I do not see it as a "loaded" handgun because there is nothing in the chamber (live round, snap cap, training round, etc.). The next question is did he sweep himself when using a pencil to check for a squib. 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). He did not sweep himself. He was already shown clear, with no magazine in the gun, slide back, under the RO's supervision. Molson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 The next question is did he sweep himself when using a pencil to check for a squib. 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). This is a good point. I have had 1 squib, and being a fairly new shooter, I let the RO direct me on what to do. He had me lock the slide back, point the barrel towards the sky (maybe not the best idea, but better than sweeping a human), and we put a piece of paper in the chamber to see if there was light shining through the barrel (there wasn't). At that point, we knew we had an unloaded gun with a bullet stuck in the barrel, so i was escorted to the safety table where we cleared it. perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to have squib-checking device (pipe cleaner stapled at a right angle to a popsicle stick, or coat hanger or similar) with a right angle bend, so it could be inserted down the barrel while the shooters hand remains well away to the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 As others have said: No, it's not loaded at that point. The competitor may go to the safety area on their own. As for the pencil thing, thumbs down! Troy recommended a zip tie inserted from the chamber end to determine if a bullet is lodged in the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddox Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 The next question is did he sweep himself when using a pencil to check for a squib. 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). This is a good point. I have had 1 squib, and being a fairly new shooter, I let the RO direct me on what to do. He had me lock the slide back, point the barrel towards the sky (maybe not the best idea, but better than sweeping a human), and we put a piece of paper in the chamber to see if there was light shining through the barrel (there wasn't). At that point, we knew we had an unloaded gun with a bullet stuck in the barrel, so i was escorted to the safety table where we cleared it. perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to have squib-checking device (pipe cleaner stapled at a right angle to a popsicle stick, or coat hanger or similar) with a right angle bend, so it could be inserted down the barrel while the shooters hand remains well away to the side. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/334530/arredondo-squib-rod-multi-tool-nylon-black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 As others have said: No, it's not loaded at that point. The competitor may go to the safety area on their own. As for the pencil thing, thumbs down! Troy recommended a zip tie inserted from the chamber end to determine if a bullet is lodged in the barrel. I really like the zip tie idea. First I have heard of that one. Being plastic, I do not see most people having an issue inserting that from the chamber end. I could see all sorts of objections to a pipe cleaner, but not really a bad idea though. I will add a couple of zip ties to the range bag. I carry a squib rod that has been used by numerous shooters. Having a zip tie will not add any weight and they are cheap. Thanks for the tip. Molson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) My procedure the last time this happened was to take the gun apart, bag the receiver and slide, and the competitor took the barrel to the safe area to do his work. Since he didn't have the tool to disassemble his (reverse plug/bull barrel) SV, I ran to my car to grab the tool while another RO took care of the gun/competitor. I prefer not to allow anyone to leave the line with a gun that is not clear, although I won't claim any authority for that. It's best to remedy the situation in the bay if possible. I also keep a squib rod in my bag now to solve this problem, I did the "pencil" test myself, so that there was no concerns with "sweeping" or anything like that. Edited March 26, 2012 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Does being an RO make you excempt from 10.5.5? Other than Nationals, I think most RO's are also competitors in the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Does being an RO make you excempt from 10.5.5? Other than Nationals, I think most RO's are also competitors in the match. You are not sweeping yourself with your gun - you're sweeping yourself with someone elses... Seriously, though most majors you are not competitors when you are acting as RO (except for the RO day when SOMETIMES you run yourselves). If you are dedicated as an RO then I think it doesn't apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Does being an RO make you excempt from 10.5.5? Other than Nationals, I think most RO's are also competitors in the match. I think the idea that I could have been DQed from the match on Saturday when (in this instance), I shot them match on Thursday is a stretch that our all-volunteer RO situation doesn't regard well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 So are you exempt from all DQ's because you are an RO or just this one? Can you handle your firearm in the parking lot? Show up with your carry gun on your hip (and loaded?) I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I don't see anything in the rulebook that makes you exempt because you are an RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 So are you exempt from all DQ's because you are an RO or just this one? Can you handle your firearm in the parking lot? Show up with your carry gun on your hip (and loaded?) I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I don't see anything in the rulebook that makes you exempt because you are an RO. I get it - I'm arguing a little on a limb too, but I think that we need to be a little careful about the integrity of the match disqualification here by using it against ROs that are no longer active competitors in the match. For example. If I shoot the match on Friday and act as dedicated staff on Saturday and Sunday - even though I am a competitor in the match - I'm clearly NOT acting as one but as a match official during Saturday and Sunday. If you begin to use the rules of competitors against officials, and one can argue if something like 10.5.5 can be used - so then can 10.6.1, issues may arise from this. Can I arbitrate this? If I'm being treated as a competitor then when do the rules of discipline of officials kick in? (7.2) I believe it's clear enough if I'm no longer acting as a competitor - and as dedicated match staff - any issue that arrises should be dealt with as if I wasn't even shooting the match, but just a dedicated official - and that's through 7.2 and NROI Discipline policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I'm looking forward to the opinions of some of the more experienced competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVZ Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 If you have already finished the match you can not DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 If you have already finished the match you can not DQ Can you support that opinion with the rulebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The only thing I see that even comes close: 10.3.5 Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in a Shoot-Off or other side match. And even this is a stretch. I am of the opinion that RO's can be DQ'd. I won't go poking around the muzzle end of a gun looking for a squib because I would DQ the shooter if he did the same. I believe the match starts from the time you sign in until final scores are posted, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Does being an RO make you excempt from 10.5.5? Other than Nationals, I think most RO's are also competitors in the match. I'd give a competitor working as an RO a lot of leeway, during the specific time he was working as an RO...... I see it as a transition -- from competitor to RO and back to competitor..... Then again, the moment that an RO picks up a competitor's gun, there should be another RO there to supervise/provide a second set of eyes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 So are you exempt from all DQ's because you are an RO or just this one? Can you handle your firearm in the parking lot? Show up with your carry gun on your hip (and loaded?) I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I don't see anything in the rulebook that makes you exempt because you are an RO. When acting as RM I get to shoot a gun to calibrate the steel. There's nothing in the rulebook preventing me from giving myself the range commands. It would be a really bad idea to do so, and I always insist on having a member of the stage staff act as my RO, and run me through the relevant commands -- typically "Make Ready," "fire at will" and then "Unload..." through "Range is Clear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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