acekc Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I've read a number of posts that talk about how 3N38 produces fireballs with major loads in 38 Super open guns. Some people have said that the amount of flash can depend on the gun while others say that when shooting a magazine full of rounds with the same load, some will flash a lot and some very little. I've been testing several powders for a major 38 Super load and one of them is 3N38. I found that 9.6gr chrono'ed at around 170PF with 124gr MG bullets so I was shooting that load this morning to judge dot movement, etc. I found that not only did I have significant variation in the size of the fireball but the sound of the report changed significantly as well. Without trying to sound like an audiophile the rounds with relatively little flash had a more typical bang sound while the rounds with the large fireball had more bass and a more rounded sound, more of a bong than a bang. I was very careful with OAL and powder weight on these (loaded them on a progressive, weighed the powder throw every 3-4 rounds and never saw significant variance) so unless I'm on the razor's edge of some threshold I don't think that the different flash/report was due to a higher powder charge. I didn't notice any difference in perceived recoil either. Has anyone else experienced this? Anybody think it's anything to worry about? I'm leaning towards a different powder anyway; Silhouette is cheaper, uses less powder per round so less potential for spillage, and I saw no significant disadvantage in terms of dot movement. However, in case I decide to give 3N38 another try in the future I'd like to make sure that the difference in flash/report isn't indicative of being on the edge of a sudden pressure spike or some other issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I have used 3N38 for 38S for numerous open guns. Never had fireballs from 3N38. It is slightly louder than some powders. I have a friend who shoots an SVI IMM with 10gns of 3N38. No fireballs. 3N37 is the one I get fireballs with. All the open guns I've seen shooting 3N37 has fireballs, but it is indoors that you really see em. When I'm shooting outside, never see em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acekc Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 I have used 3N38 for 38S for numerous open guns. Never had fireballs from 3N38. It is slightly louder than some powders. I have a friend who shoots an SVI IMM with 10gns of 3N38. No fireballs. 3N37 is the one I get fireballs with. All the open guns I've seen shooting 3N37 has fireballs, but it is indoors that you really see em. When I'm shooting outside, never see em. I am shooting indoors, so both the fireballs and the sound are a lot easier to notice. If the sound and flash were consistent that would be one thing, it's the fact that it changes so much from shot to shot that concerns me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I have used 3N38 for 38S for numerous open guns. Never had fireballs from 3N38. It is slightly louder than some powders. I have a friend who shoots an SVI IMM with 10gns of 3N38. No fireballs. 3N37 is the one I get fireballs with. All the open guns I've seen shooting 3N37 has fireballs, but it is indoors that you really see em. When I'm shooting outside, never see em. I am shooting indoors, so both the fireballs and the sound are a lot easier to notice. If the sound and flash were consistent that would be one thing, it's the fact that it changes so much from shot to shot that concerns me. Flash will not be consistent. Sound should be about the same. Check the charge rate about every tenth load. It should be pretty much what you set it for. I shoot indoors a lot also. Several ROs have mentioned how load my gun is with 3N38, don't seem to get the same feedback with 3N37. I also have popple holes which make the gun louder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I used to use 3N38 in my .38SC; went through about one and a half jugs worth and never once saw a fireball. only shoot outdoors though. this powder is supposed to be excellent in hybrid/ported guns, but it didnt work as well as N105 in my non-ported setup so I now use that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I was stuffing 9.7 grains of 3N38 under 115's in a 9mm Open gun TRYING to get flash... and never got any. Nice, but a PITA to load! I've seen plenty of flash (even outdoors) off 3N37 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I believe the variations you are seeing are from unburned powder accumulating in the comp and igniting periodically. They are somewhat louder and flash more than the other shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 What Sarge said. Also fireballs are much less noticeable behind the dot than off to the side. Don't know why, but that is my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I shot 10.2 gr of 3N38 in my SV IMM 38 SC gun and never had any flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've had occasional fireballs with 3N38 in my Open gun, and I think it is like Sarge said, accumulation of unburnt powder in the comp. that would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acekc Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 I believe the variations you are seeing are from unburned powder accumulating in the comp and igniting periodically. They are somewhat louder and flash more than the other shots. Wow, that's an interesting theory and it would probably explain both the flash and the difference in the sound. I'm trying to figure out if the thought of that disturbs me or not. I suppose it doesn't hurt anything but if this morning's shooting is any indication I would probably find it distracting at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 If this is what you are seeing it is normal: My buddy Chris Keen shooting 38 Super with I believe 3N37 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51217&view=findpost&p=1653400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 If this is what you are seeing it is normal: My buddy Chris Keen shooting 38 Super with I believe 3N37 What??? What fireballs are we talking about? I don't see anything but the dot when I shoot!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieF Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Im guessing the flash is there, we just dont see it. I was wrapping up practice one evening and as it got darker I couldn't see the target any longer. So I threw a mag in just to record the flash. Was pretty cool. This is with 8gr of N350 and 125gr bullet. I'm guessing every powder/size charge make a different sound. I would go off what the primer looks like for any signs of overpressure. Edited March 6, 2012 by OzzieF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Im guessing the flash is there, we just dont see it. I was wrapping up practice one evening and as it got darker I couldn't see the target any longer. So I threw a mag in just to record the flash. Was pretty cool. This is with 8gr of N350 and 125gr bullet. I'm guessing every powder/size charge make a different sound. I would go off what the primer looks like for any signs of overpressure. That last shot even had flash coming out of the ejection port. What does that mean? Popped primer? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acekc Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 If this is what you are seeing it is normal: My buddy Chris Keen shooting 38 Super with I believe 3N37 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51217&view=findpost&p=1653400 The difference in the flash is very similar to what I'm seeing. I didn't hear as much of a difference in sound on the video but that could be anything from differences in the acoustics of the range in the video vs the range where I shoot to the dynamics of the microphone on the camera. I'm guessing every powder/size charge make a different sound. I would go off what the primer looks like for any signs of overpressure. To be clear, I'm talking about shot-to-shot differences in sound/flash between rounds loaded with the same powder and charge. Sarge's theory that unburned powder in the comp is ignited by a later shot probably explains the difference. I haven't seen any primer flattening or other pressure signs with the load so I don't think the differences are due to too much powder for example. I was very careful checking powder weights (checked every 3-4 rounds and only ever saw +/-0.04gr variance) so I'm confident I wasn't getting overweight throws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieF Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'd agree with the un burned powder suggestion. I'm curious to see how much powder doesn't get burned with the larger/higher filled case powder loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieF Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Im guessing the flash is there, we just dont see it. I was wrapping up practice one evening and as it got darker I couldn't see the target any longer. So I threw a mag in just to record the flash. Was pretty cool. This is with 8gr of N350 and 125gr bullet. I'm guessing every powder/size charge make a different sound. I would go off what the primer looks like for any signs of overpressure. That last shot even had flash coming out of the ejection port. What does that mean? Popped primer? Bill Bill, I did see that, but all the brass I picked up had primers and were not flat or cratered. I'm guessing it's just some of the un burned powder left in the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreS Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Had the same issue with an Infinity 5.5 hybrid with comp... Tracked it down to the small rifle primer - switched to small pistol primers and resolved the problem! The small rifle primer seems to ignite slower, with the projectile moving and powder dispersed, it created a significant flashback, inconsistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Had the same issue with an Infinity 5.5 hybrid with comp... Tracked it down to the small rifle primer - switched to small pistol primers and resolved the problem! The small rifle primer seems to ignite slower, with the projectile moving and powder dispersed, it created a significant flashback, inconsistently. Huh. Interesting. And here I thought that rifle primers gave a faster, more "thorough" burn in order to ignite the longer column of powder they typically deal with. I RO and shoot with several folks regularly who run 3N38 in 38 SC, but I've never seen a fireball. Maybe I'm too distracted by the fact that it sounds like a damn .308 going off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster mcbee Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I shoot 3N38 in my .38 SC. My shooting mates tape every impromptu match we hold, and are constantly talking about the flash from my pistol. I don't notice it behind the sights, but you can sure see it on the recording. Last week we practiced well into dusk. The fireball was obvious then of course. It was so big it was making me flinch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunt_fish Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Flash is unburnt powder burning outside the barrel. It all depends on the amount of powder, the burn rate of the powder you are using and the length of your barrel. It suggests you could go to a faster? burning powder but use less of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimini Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I've read a number of posts that talk about how 3N38 produces fireballs with major loads in 38 Super open guns. Some people have said that the amount of flash can depend on the gun while others say that when shooting a magazine full of rounds with the same load, some will flash a lot and some very little. I've been testing several powders for a major 38 Super load and one of them is 3N38. I found that 9.6gr chrono'ed at around 170PF with 124gr MG bullets so I was shooting that load this morning to judge dot movement, etc. I found that not only did I have significant variation in the size of the fireball but the sound of the report changed significantly as well. Without trying to sound like an audiophile the rounds with relatively little flash had a more typical bang sound while the rounds with the large fireball had more bass and a more rounded sound, more of a bong than a bang. I was very careful with OAL and powder weight on these (loaded them on a progressive, weighed the powder throw every 3-4 rounds and never saw significant variance) so unless I'm on the razor's edge of some threshold I don't think that the different flash/report was due to a higher powder charge. I didn't notice any difference in perceived recoil either. Has anyone else experienced this? Anybody think it's anything to worry about? I'm leaning towards a different powder anyway; Silhouette is cheaper, uses less powder per round so less potential for spillage, and I saw no significant disadvantage in terms of dot movement. However, in case I decide to give 3N38 another try in the future I'd like to make sure that the difference in flash/report isn't indicative of being on the edge of a sudden pressure spike or some other issue. i have the same issue with my Brazos using Bob's recommended IMR 4756. My first clue as to what might cause this was when I found unburned powder in my comp one day. I laid the gun on the white side of a target on the bench and saw the powder fall out. What I surmise is that unburned power in the comp ignites on the next shot causing the flash.I had the same issue with VV N105, also a Brazos recommended power. Infinity recommends only 3N38 in their open guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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