ktm300 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I have spend some time searching but not finding so here is the question. I saw a shooter run his gun empty and the slide did not lock back. He put a mag in it but did not rack the slide. Pulled the trigger, of course nothing happend. With finger still in the trigger guard and close to, if not on, the trigger he racks the slide. The gun was pointed over the targets but in their general direction. So is the act of racking the slide reloading? Kind of seems like it to me but I am pretty new at this game. If so is he a DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Deleted Edited February 13, 2012 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I say yes. DQ If you think about it he can't shoot again until he "reloads" With a dry gun there is only one way to do it. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 With finger still in the trigger guard and close to, if not on, Was his finger on it or not. RO has to be sure it was, not I think I saw his finger on trigger, or RM will over rule call. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 With finger still in the trigger guard and close to, if not on, Was his finger on it or not. RO has to be sure it was, not I think I saw his finger on trigger, or RM will over rule call. MDA You should go and read the rule in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 "Finger" would be my call as an RO under those circumstances where there was some question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Good question. From Appendix A3: Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The penalty for finger on the trigger while reloading---DQ: 10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. HOWEVER----There is this---and it's NOT a DQ while clearing a malfunction: 10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away from aiming at targets. SO--the slide didn't lock back. Malfunction? If racking the slide to clear a malfunction while still pointed at the targets, no DQ. If racking the slide is considered part of "reloading"--then even though the gun is pointed at the targets, DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 "Finger" would be my call as an RO under those circumstances where there was some question. Finger is used a lot but it's not a range command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 With finger still in the trigger guard and close to, if not on, Was his finger on it or not. RO has to be sure it was, not I think I saw his finger on trigger, or RM will over rule call. MDA You should go and read the rule in question. +1 Finger does not have to be on the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 "Finger" would be my call as an RO under those circumstances where there was some question. Finger is used a lot but it's not a range command. 8.6.1 Allowed at any time. Communication is not restricted to range commands. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Ughh... Yes it's perfectly OK to say finger. It's just not good RO practice to let DQ offenses slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I thought I saw a ruling somewhere about reloading/replenishment somewhere. The reloading process is completed once the magazine was inserted. Racking the slide, while still aiming in the general direction of a target, no DQ. Move away from aiming at the target, DQ. It would technically be no different than having a round with a bad primer in a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 "Finger" would be my call as an RO under those circumstances where there was some question. Finger is used a lot but it's not a range command. 8.6.1 Allowed at any time. Communication is not restricted to range commands. Jim Saying "finger" pretty much says that the finger was in the trigger guard, thats is all it takes to be a DQ. 10.5.9 says nothing about "on the trigger". There was no question the finger was in the trigger guard. I am not fond of gray in rules. Either it's a DQ or it's not. On the surface the rulebook defines this as not safe if he is reloading. So back to the original question, is racking the slide reloading? On the surface this looks like it says it is: Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. But the ammo is already in the gun, just not in the chamber, so is racking the slide reloading? Are you inserting ammunition into the firearm? To me it's not a malfunction that the slide did not lock back. A lot of people don't want their slides to lock back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It's in the glossary Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. I think it is splitting hairs to say this is not a DQ since it is a DQ if the finger is in the TG during loading and unloading as well. During loading the rules spell out specific instances where the trigger can be in TG. Unloading surely entails more than just dropping a mag, i.e. racking slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So back to the original question, is racking the slide reloading? On the surface this looks like it says it is: Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. As I see it the sticky part is that technically putting a mag with ammo into the gun makes it a loaded gun. But racking the slide is a continuation of the process even though some may think the reloading definition ends at putting the mag in the gun. That may be selective interpretation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The act itself is no diffrent than what you would do when clearing a malfunction. What he did just before racking the slide (inserting a magizine) should have no baring on the act itself. The point to me would be was he point at the targets or not. The description by the OP is gray, either pointing at the targets or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sarge, When he pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang is that not a malf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I hope it isn't a DQ. I have done it before at slide lock in SingleStack on a close target (last target of a stage). Reload (like normal) gun goes up as the off-hand racks the slide and then an immediate bang to make up a shot. I don't think it is reloading? What if he, instead, released the slide lock with his finger (left or right hand) in the trigger guard to make up the shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 We've diced this one before. Let's look at it from a different way. He drops the mag out, puts a fresh mag in the gun. Is the gun loaded or is it not loaded. By the definition, the gun is loaded - we don't need to have a round in the chamber to call the gun loaded. Let's say he pauses 5-10 seconds because he can't figure out there isn't a round in the chamber. He's pulling the trigger... nothings happening. All of a sudden he figures out the gun needs a rack to go... is the gun malfunctioning - or is he still loading? Let's look at it another way - how else can we get the gun in the same state? Well, we can allow our thumbs to ride the slide, eject the spent casing but fail to strip off the round to chamber again. Same trigger pulls, same issue, but now we are going to say this is a different rule because he previously put a magazine in the gun? The act of loading ends when we can say the gun is loaded - the magazine is seated. Anything else is applying an interpretation to the rules that is not supported BY the rules. Otherwise, we'd never be able to call the gun loaded with the magazine in the gun with the chamber empty. The reverse does not apply, though. If the magazine is out of the gun, but a round is in the chamber - there is still ammunition in the gun. The act of racking the slide is, whether the gun failed or whether the shooter failed, clearing a malfunction - and should be treated as such. Thus, under, 10.5.8, also previously quoted, the competitor must clearly move the gun away from the target for a DQ to apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Without having seen it -- I'd most likely decide this on the basis of 10.5.8..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Thanks for all the information, I tried to keep an open mind but it's hard as we all have an opinion when we see something. My opinion when I saw it was confused. I did not think what he did was unsafe as the gun was pointed in a safe direction, but I did think it was a DQ under 10.5.9. After reading this post I don't think it was a DQ. To me the idea behind a DQ is that someone does something that is not safe. I find it interesting that you can clear a jam from a gun with your finger on the trigger as long as you are pointed at the targets but you can't reload the gun with your finger on the trigger even if the gun stays on target. Personally I think you should get that finger out of there to do anything but fire the gun. To me the interpretation that racking the slide after you have reloaded and tried to fire a shot is not the act of reloading is correct. Did the gun malfunction? I have to say yes, the trigger was pulled and it did not go off when it was expected to. It's funny they don't define malfunction in the rulebook. The define a bunch of other stuff that seems at least as obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 On a (somewhat) related note, check out page 20 of DAA's February 2012 Double-Alpha Zone: http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/DAA_Zone/February_2012/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Ughh... Yes it's perfectly OK to say finger. It's just not good RO practice to let DQ offenses slide. "Finger" and "Muzzle" may be part of the IDPA program, but they are not range commands and have no place in USPSA. If you are ROing me and I engage in unsafe gun-handling by having my finger in the trigger guard at the wrong time, or if I allow the muzzle to break the 180, you should yell "Stop" and immediately DQ my ass. Because you're exactly correct in saying it's not good RO practice to let DQ offenses slide. If it's not a DQ situation, you need to keep quiet and not distract me when I'm shooting my stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 On a (somewhat) related note, check out page 20 of DAA's February 2012 Double-Alpha Zone: http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/DAA_Zone/February_2012/index.html With the disclamer that it is hard to tell from a picture, that looks pretty bad. I am supprised that with an open gun he didn't AD. To me it looks like the RO is not looking at the gun. I see so many people do that when they run people. They look at everything but the gun. Me, I try to look at the gun as close to 100% of the time as I can. When I can't see it I am trying to get in a better position so I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 for perspective... Sarge, When he pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang is that not a malf? In Steel Challenge, we allow for an "alibi". ...which is a reshoot for a malfunction. We don't count not putting ammo in the chamber as a malfunction. That is covered under brain fart...no alibi. (not sure that is in the glossary. LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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