Introducing PractiScore

[jcwren]

And is there really any issue with leaving the other fields there? I'm curious why you're worried about minimizing them.

No reason except for the fact that I like to understand how things work. It's a big part of my job.

I exploring the PSS.txt, I have noticed one glaring issue, people shooting Single Stack are exporting as LTDTEN!

I believe that was fixed in EZWS 4.08 or 4.09. What version is your PSS.txt from?

[Graham Smith]

I believe that was fixed in EZWS 4.08 or 4.09. What version is your PSS.txt from?

Well, if I try and upgrade to 4.09 it tells me it's already at that version, but the sofware says it's actually 4.08. Hmmm, lets see what happens if I tell it to upgrade anyway.

<time passes>

Bingo. That fixed it. Thanks.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Graham Smith

[wgnoyes]

The second issue is because EZWS never *really* deletes shooters from a match. I'm told this is because of the way shooter numbers are assigned, and if you really delete someone, they'll be out of sequence. The sequence can't be changed because of potential squadding issues, and the fact that EZWS doesn't really "know" where the registration came from.

I know that they remain what I'm not sure about is if there is any reason why they have to be transferred to PS. Right now, the simple solution may be to just leave them in squad 99 where they will be ignored.

One of the things I'm trying to figure out is what in the PSS.txt file has to be there to be imported and what does not. My current plan is to just remove things that don't seem to be necessary and run a test and see what goes wrong.

If you're only going in one direction, then I imagine it shouldn't matter. But we bring our matches back into EZWS for posting to USPSA. ...

And remember everyone, you HAVE to, by the rulebook, bring the match back into ezws for calculating official match scores and uploading results and activity (classifier) reporting to USPSA. PS is a data collector, but none of the results it produces can currently be regarded as official.

[Graham Smith]

Perhaps one way to manage this (in the absence of a better solution) is to set the deleted shooters to squad 98.

I see now why you say 98. Leaving it at 99 or changing it to 0 puts all those people into squad 1.

[JThompson]

I will be submitting and after action from A5 with RO input, but here are a some thoughts off the top.

We need to be able to print the shooter score right there at the stage, non of this transferring to fortune cookie paper. If we can't do that for a major the need to stay at L1 matches. IMHO until we can print out a paper in close to the same format as current scoresheets we do not have a viable alternative for majors. We need to be able to assign FTEs and procedural for specific targets on the screen where we score them as well as another screen if no target is involved. We need a choice list for them and also and other which will be filled in when printed. We HAVE to have this to stave off arb challenges and insure we are relying not on RO memory.

The device must last all day and not shut down because of heat or moisture. A new case that "cools" the ipod is not the answer because it takes power to run it. ALso the screen is too small, so IMHO Ipods are out for majors an outdoor events with extreme heat.

The bottom line for me is that there needs to be a way to enter everything we do on paper on the device with few exceptions and that needs to be on paper and not just a summary of hits. We are taking to much away from the shooter this way. Don't you guys ever drag out your sheets and compare hits with your friends? We always do that and compare which targets got us and jog our memories on what we need to work on.

You need to see the shooter name as well as number and not have to try and write the name down on the fortune cookie to make sure the proper shooter is being scored.

A way to push new, DNS, DNF and DQs out to the devices. You can't run around like a madman syncing devices every time someone changes squads, doesnt show doesn't finish... whatever. If it a squad change and the staff puts them in manually, and you also do it and sync you have a reentry, not good. Nope we need a push with the proper care and perhaps and incremental backup at the time.

These are just a few off the top of my head and there might be options out there to solve some of them, but this needs to be seamless and idiot proof, not just follow X procedure if Y happens kind of thing.

Now without the USPSA stepping up and helping buy devices, wifi and printer options, I do not think it worth the price even if the issues are taken care of. Ideally you would have at least 50% backup. 13 stages X 2 x 100 + Batteries + Wifi + Printers and staff time to set it all up and get to know it. Say for a major like A5 we put out something like $3k and that without printers. Why when I can do that for $800 in scoresheets.

As one of my ROs said, what problem are we trying to solve, what do we gain, what do we lose and how much does it cost? Is my staff willing to get behind this and can I give them what they need to make it happen quickly, efficiently and without adding to their workload?

There will be a more detailed report, if a more cogent format, when I get the time to collate data from match staff, but I advise you to consider carefully.

JT

Edited June 20, 2012 by JThompson

[jcwren]

I will be submitting and after action from A5 with RO input, but here are a couple of deal breakers for me.

We need to be able to print the shooter score right there at the stage, non of this transferring to fortune cookie paper. If we can't do that for a major the need to stay at L1 matches. IMHO until we can print out a paper in close to the same format as current scoresheets we do not have a viable alternative for majors. We need to be able to assign FTEs and procedural for specific targets on the screen where we score them as well as another screen if no target is involved. We need a choice list for them and also and other which will be filled in when printed. We HAVE to have this to stave off arb challenges and insure we are relying not on RO memory.

The device must last all day and not shut down because of heat or moisture. A new case that "cools" the ipod is not the answer because it takes power to run it. ALso the screen is too small, so IMHO Ipods are out for majors an outdoor events with extreme heat.

The bottom line for me is that there needs to be a way to enter everything we do on paper on the device with few exceptions and that needs to be on paper and not just a summary of hits. We are taking to much away from the shooter this way. Don't you guys ever drag out your sheets and compare hits with your friends? We always do that and compare which targets got us and jog our memories on what we need to work on.

You need to see the shooter name as well as number and not have to try and write the name down on the fortune cookie to make sure the proper shooter is being scored.

A way to push new, DNS, DNF and DQs out to the devices. You can't run around like a madman syncing devices every time someone changes squads, doesnt show doesn't finish... whatever. If it a squad change and the staff puts them in manually, and you also do it and sync you have a reentry, not good. Nope we need a push with the proper care and perhaps and incremental backup at the time.

These are just a few off the top of my head and there might be options out there to solve some of them, but this needs to be seamless and idiot proof, not just follow X procedure if Y happens kind of thing.

Now without the USPSA stepping up and helping buy devices, wifi and printer options, I do not think it worth the price even if the issues are taken care of. Ideally you would have at least 50% backup. 13 stages X 2 x 100 + Batteries + Wifi + Printers and staff time to set it all up and get to know it. Say for a major like A5 we put out something like $3k and that without printers. Why when I can do that for $800 in scoresheets.

As one of my ROs said, what problem are we trying to solve, what do we gain, what do we lose and how much does it cost? Is my staff willing to get behind this and can I give them what they need to make it happen quickly, efficiently and without adding to their workload? We can't ask them to work any harder than they do already or it's not viable.

There will be a more detailed report when I get the time to collate data from match staff, but I advise you to consider carefully.

I, for one, totally disagree with your "deal breakers". We've scored at least 3 70+ shooter matches, at least 30 weekly matches with anywhere between 7 and 32 shooters, and they've run several L2 matches with excellent success.

I will grant that L2 and L3 matches are generally run differently from L1 matches (except for Bill Noyes's matches , where there are dedicated score keepers who aren't shooting. With pre-printed score sheets, errors tend to be reduced, and you have RO's that stay with the stage. With L1 matches, this has drastically reduced the number of errors in scoring for our clubs. Trying to get people to add a simple column of numbers seems to be near impossible, decoding the so-called "handwriting" of some people, and the sheer time it takes to enter 80+ score sheets with 7 stages into EzWinScore are all major factors. Not to mention we almost *always* have scores available within 15 minutes after the match ends.

I will also grant that for L2 matches that procedurals need to be more specific (FTE vs foot fault, etc). I'm not sure where that part is going to go right now, but it's obviously been dealt with by Ken & company at the area matches they've done, and to the competitors satisfaction.

As far as cost, one of our clubs bought 12 units at $70/ea, plus an $80 outdoor access point and a $20 router for a DHCP server. These are the same units we'll be using at GA State. That's still less than $1K, and gives us our back-up units.

Comparing hits? No. Totals? Yes.

Fortunately, and in spite of the learning curve for "how should this work", there are people out there willing to try this, rather than just shoot down the entire concept based on their paper experiences. We've had some issues here and there, but we've never lost a match or even had to throw out a stage because of the scoring method. We have had a unit fail and had to re-enter a couple dozen scores from the "fortune cookie paper". Now, with site-wide WiFi access, we just sync all the units every on a regular basis. We don't have to "run around like madmen" syncing. We just grab the master device, and sync against all the units. Takes about a minute and a half. We do still run paper back-ups at the outdoor matches, because the reality is that paper will be used for a long time yet.

If you'd like to see PractiScore in operation at a large outdoor match, come and shoot with us at Cherokee Gun Club in Oakwood, GA (2nd Saturday of the month). We have shooters ranging in age from 10 years old to 70 year olds who can run the devices after about 3 minutes of training. We get fewer errors and faster match scores. Shooters can also sync as they go, and see their results. We'eve had *nothing* except positive reception to switching to PS, and it's generated a *lot* of excitement.

Edited June 20, 2012 by jcwren

[wgnoyes]

I read a lot of frustration in this post and I feel for you. I don't know what happened at area 5, but (and intending absolutely no disrespect) I'll leave some thoughts anyway.

Actually for a major match, I would have used the single shooter per sheet 5x8 page available on practiscore.com, or created something very similar. (Peter, Alan, JC, if you're watching, I recommend that for the GA state match as well.) That's more like a normal scoresheet, shooters are used to the format obviously, and you'd have those printed on 2-part ncr paper, have the shooter sign the sheet just like a regular scoresheet, give the copy to the shooter and keep the original as backup. If necessary, stats could enter scores from those much more readily than from the paper strip scoresheets. (I HAVE seen the paper strip receipts used at the nationals before, but I think the 5x8 receipts are more appropriate for a major match.)

Nook simple touches last all day and then some, and the screen isn't too small. And I suppose there's a first for everything, but I've never seen an iOS device crash because of heat. And for my own opinion, iPhone and iPod touch screens aren't too small for this application.

Shooter numbers aren't really applicable in practiscore, because you don't call them up that way; you call them up by squad number and name. Shooter numbers relate to ezws, where you look at the shooter number on the label, keypunch the number on the 10-key pad of ezws to call him up, and enter the scores.

Why do all the devices need to be synched for no-shows, DNF's, and DQ's? Those are exception-level events that do not affect the progress of any given stage. At the start of a paper match, we print squad listings and send those out to the stages. We don't re-print them and send them out again when we someone is a no-show; so why do I have to resynch all the stage devices for that? It's easy enough for the squad to just tell the RO so-and-so didn't make it. A DNF on stage 2 has absolutely no effect on stage 3, so the RO's on 3 don't need to know about it. DQ's? We don't run around now telling all the stages that so-and-so DQ'ed. We've never had to; they just typically pack up and leave. (Unless the guy's a true sportsman and puts away his stuff and stays to help paste and whatnot.)

Are you saying if you change an existing shooter's squad number, THAT synchs back to the master as a re-entry? If so, that's a problem, of course. If not, then what's the issue? There's a feature at the bottom of the squad list when you're entering scores for a stage called "move shooter to this squad" which is a simple method of making a quick squad# change. It's easy to miss if you don't scroll to the bottom of the list, but eventually you're going to scroll to the bottom to get the last few guys in the squad anyway, so.... anyway, it's there and it works.

I do understand the inconvenience of having to flip back and forth between score entry and penalty entry. Not sure what they can do about it.

I could see USPSA having a fleet of hardware that could be sent to Lvl3 matches (Nationals and Area Championships), but I honestly don't see them becoming a "welfare agency" for every club that wants to advance into the 21st century. A nook simple touch costs $80 or so, depending on where you get it. We spend more than that on timers, and we don't ask USPSA to help us buy those.

Again, sorry you had problems.

Edited June 20, 2012 by wgnoyes

[JThompson]

I didn't say they need to do it for every club as I said club level matches aren't really an issue. Having people on squad lists that aren't there is a real problem as they can inadvertently get scored and it sets you off by one shooter. I'm not here to argue with anyone, just letting other thinking about it at a major know that there are real issues out there and most ROs are not experts at dealing with them, nor can staff be everywhere at once and that leaves out heat, moisture and bat failures.

What I wrote was objective and the match was not delayed as we were never behind schedule and ran some 396 shooters. What I am saying is it's not ready and there are issues that need to be dealt with. The emotion seems more geared toward people trying to defend something instead of looking at it objectively and fix the things that need to be fixed.

You want the ROs to do a 3x5 card? Why not just do a 4x6 scoresheet if you are going down that road...? You are still passing the data through 3 people instead of 2 and I fail to see how this improves accuracy.

It's interesting that most of the people who love this option also do the stats and the shooters and ROs are less complimentary.

I'm not going to sit here and debate this stuff point by point, I was not slamming the program, but putting forth valid concerns and asking the questions. The program is free and it's only part of the issue, I touched on the others and I had 60 staff for feedback. Some had little or no issues other than heat, bats, but if you are going to hand these things out to 50+ ROs is all needs to be bullet proof and give the same info to shooters as we do with paper. That includes tewo other A5s one as MD and one A_MD and stats. This was not our first rodeo and we have been there before.

I worked harder, and so did stats at any match we ever had with paper and that is not where we want to be. Perhaps a dedicated stats crew for majors would work better as there are things we didn't know going in that would have helped, but there is seldom a perfect scenario.

I respectfully submit, unless you have run it at a major, you are lacking in your knowledge of possible problems. After Area 1 Ken said it wasn't ready for major and I can only assume his staff would be the most well read of any. They fixed some issues, and others are still there and new ones found that maybe came up with less experienced staff.

We got through it and it was not a total a disaster, but it sure would have been easier dealing with paper and that is an objective thought. At times we all fealt like the little Dutch Boy with our fingers in the damn. Basically, as the MD I was a stats officer for three days and you know how us MDs hate to work after our part should be finished. After the months of work that go into a major, it's nice to hand it off to the RM and enjoy the fruits. That was not the case here for sure.

JT

Edited June 20, 2012 by JThompson

[Mark K]

Yes,I am new to running a match with PS, but let me comment as both a Level I and Level II Match Director, and as a competitor.

Buying devices - Almost all the clubs now in Alabama are using PS, most are using Nook ST, and one is using IPOD. It is not an terrible expense, for a club. Pooling resources would not be much of a problem for a Major, and then fact that it runs on devices that a huge portion of the population own, makes them easy to find in a pinch. I found it funny at our local match last weekend, as I was syncing match devices, the number if individual shooter's personal phones that connected to get the scores.

Paper backup - I have shot the Gator Classic for the last 3 years (I think), and that is a pretty major match. They use (used?) the Palm system those three years, with the two part strips for backup and record for the shooter. As a Shooter, I found that to be more than sufficient.

As a MD, I can see that some possible additional cost in dollars would be GREATLY offset by a reduction in Stats staff for a major. With a Wi-Fi setup at the range (at a cost of less than $150), one person can periodically sync the devices from a central occasion. No need to run around and IR sync the devices, like with palm, no need to send someone around and collect the score sheets, and especially no need for many people skilled at data entry (or data entry errors).

At our first match with PS, we had two shooters zeroing a stage because the scorer did not enter a time for them. I have that number regularly with paper scoring.

I had one shooter awarded 3 A's on a target. I have those sorts of target score errors all the time on paper - HOWEVER with PS, I did not have to total or re-total a single column of hits, or add in the steel with the scorer forgot, or correct any number of other math errors. A piece of paper never told me that a scoresheet was incomplete (no time entered) or that there were too many hits recorded for a target. Practiscore does. I have to educate my staff to look for it, but that is easy.

I hope someday to see a cheap printer, not unlike a label printer, that I can print out a score strip for each shooter, but for major matches only. However, I would much prefer to see a RO and Shooter signature screen in PS, and eventually do away with paper altogether.

I just found that the RO's loved the system once they learned it, and the shooters loved being about to stand around MINUTES after that match and see the results and rib each other.

Just my opinion,

Mark K

Edited June 20, 2012 by Mark K

[wgnoyes]

Understood, and thanks.

No, I didn't say a 3x5 card, I said a 5.5x8 2-part ncr paper scoresheet/receipt, same size as regular scoresheets now, similar to this https://www.practiscore.com/images/4x5summaryscoresheet.pdf. (Though I think I'd refine it a bit.) Shooter signs this scoresheet/receipt the same as he would at a paper match. He gets the copy, the original is forwarded to stats. You would also use this to report DQ's, PF changes (actually, you'd still use a regular chrono scoresheet as comes out of ezws for that), division changes, and the like. At a paper match, I save all those up for the end of the match in what I call a "hassle folder". After the last export/import of ezws machines in stats, THEN I apply the DQ's, PF changes, and whatnot, rather than making all my operators hopefully duplicate the changes across their machines. (If you get them out of synch, you have a mess; been there, done that.) I see an even more compelling reason to follow this philosophy in a practiscore match. Beyond any possible programmatic issues, the tablet on stage 1 does NOT need to know that so-and-so's PF has changed or that he dnf'ed on stage 3, so you don't really need to run around resynching everyone together for that. If your range is set up so that all stages have wi-fi connectivity, great; you call pull scores from the stages one by one. (Maybe a good idea to call the stage and ask them to stand by while you synch in new data.) Otherwise, I can envision a stats cart going around with a 2nd-layer master device to synch stages (similar to stats running around now collecting paper scoresheets) and bringing back the data to the real master device in stats.

[JThompson]

Understood, and thanks.

No, I didn't say a 3x5 card, I said a 5.5x8 2-part ncr paper scoresheet/receipt, same size as regular scoresheets now, similar to this https://www.practisc...yscoresheet.pdf. (Though I think I'd refine it a bit.) Shooter signs this scoresheet/receipt the same as he would at a paper match. He gets the copy, the original is forwarded to stats. You would also use this to report DQ's, PF changes (actually, you'd still use a regular chrono scoresheet as comes out of ezws for that), division changes, and the like. At a paper match, I save all those up for the end of the match in what I call a "hassle folder". After the last export/import of ezws machines in stats, THEN I apply the DQ's, PF changes, and whatnot, rather than making all my operators hopefully duplicate the changes across their machines. (If you get them out of synch, you have a mess; been there, done that.) I see an even more compelling reason to follow this philosophy in a practiscore match. Beyond any possible programmatic issues, the tablet on stage 1 does NOT need to know that so-and-so's PF has changed or that he dnf'ed on stage 3, so you don't really need to run around resynching everyone together for that. If your range is set up so that all stages have wi-fi connectivity, great; you call pull scores from the stages one by one. (Maybe a good idea to call the stage and ask them to stand by while you synch in new data.) Otherwise, I can envision a stats cart going around with a 2nd-layer master device to synch stages (similar to stats running around now collecting paper scoresheets) and bringing back the data to the real master device in stats.

Good stuff Bill, but again if we are asking them to do both PC and scoresheets it's double duty and ROs see it as stats shifting the work to ROs. Also I now have another $800 to spend on top of devices wifi bat ect.

That brings me to another issue shooters steps in the box, do I now have to look at a list to find out what division he/she is in to know what rules to apply? Just another one of those little things. I still think shooters need a sheet with targets numbers and scores for EACH target.

Anyway, let's keep throwing stuff at it until we can get something that the triad, RO, Shooter and stats can live with. I do not think we should abandon this type of system, we just need to make it bullet proof and keep our volunteers happy lest we have fewer of them.

I'm going to get a comprehensive after action and would be glad to send it on to anyone who wants a copy.

JT

Edited June 20, 2012 by JThompson

[wgnoyes]

...

As a MD, I can see that some possible additional cost in dollars would be GREATLY offset by a reduction in Stats staff for a major. With a Wi-Fi setup at the range (at a cost of less than $150), one person can periodically sync the devices from a central occasion. No need to run around and IR sync the devices, like with palm, no need to send someone around and collect the score sheets, and especially no need for many people skilled at data entry (or data entry errors).

That would depend entirely on your range layout. I'm not sure I can see how a wifi network could cover all of South River Gun Club's action pistol bays. Even less of a chance at the Nationals in Vegas, where the stages are a significant distance away with absolutely no line of sight back to stats. That's where you need a roving stats cart with a 2nd-layer master device to get scores and bring them back to stats to the real master.

At our first match with PS, we had two shooters zeroing a stage because the scorer did not enter a time for them. I have that number regularly with paper scoring.

I suggest when you call up the shooter on the device for the stage, go straight into the enter-time dialog where you can't help but want to put in the time before entering targets. If it's an issue of a big stage and you're trying to score targets as the stage progresses, well... just redouble your efforts to get the time, or maybe it's time to drop that practice altogether?

I had one shooter awarded 3 A's on a target. I have those sorts of target score errors all the time on paper - HOWEVER with PS, I did not have to total or re-total a single column of hits, or add in the steel with the scorer forgot, or correct any number of other math errors. A piece of paper never told me that a scoresheet was incomplete (no time entered) or that there were too many hits recorded for a target. Practiscore does. I have to educate my staff to look for it, but that is easy.

Yep. And RO's no longer have to listen to me scream and holler to make them total the times on a multi-string stage!

I hope someday to see a cheap printer, not unlike a label printer, that I can print out a score strip for each shooter, but for major matches only. However, I would much prefer to see a RO and Shooter signature screen in PS, and eventually do away with paper altogether.

That's a rulebook change.

[JThompson]

Just a bit about wifi, A lot of ranges take a lot more than one router and an AP. Ours took Router, 3AP and two repeaters. That can be overcome by getting it high enough to see down into bays or an enterprise system, but that gets $$$ fast. Even with that, the system was slow at times and I didn't have time to find out why. The system was also closed and no shooters were able to sync. I didn't want a bandwidth issue with 200 people syncing.

Just another fyi

JT

[Ken N.]

I've been traveling since early June and haven't been in touch as much as I'd like.

I was in touch (by phone and text) with the Area 5 MD all through the match. I would have attended but had a prior commitment that week.

The biggest issues, as I understood them, were:

a) Heat. Which surprised me. I shoot in St. George, UT and Las Vegas - 100+ regularly, and if you keep the iPods out of the sun, they are fine.

You can't leave it on a table in the sun, or in a bucket in the sun. I've never had an Android overheat. That is a plus in it's favor.

ezWs import. Again, the sooner this can be skipped, the easier this all will be. I'm convinced, through testing, that PS is more accurate than

ezWS. Not to put ezWS down. But if accuracy is the concern, then I'm pretty sure PS meets the test. If USPSA will let us do activity reports

(the code is already written and just needs to be enabled) these problem would disappear. The main issues are

classification updates and DQ flow through. PS does both, but the Palm interace doesn't get them into ezWS

c) Copying score sheet summaries. Longer term, I'd prefer to see score approval on the device. We have that in place, but hidden now.

The process we have place was worked out with the USPSA tech team and, as I understand it, approved by the Board. But it isn't public for now.

In practice, over many many matches from small to huge, I've never seen a score changed, or lost, once entered. We have had some situations

where the score was lost as being entered (from a bug that we've fixed), but that happened less often than taping early or other

reasons for reshoots. BTW: I have seen paper sheets disappear - over the hill in a mini-tornado and in storage compartments of vehicles.

I'd certainly be fine, as a shooter, okaying it on the device. Once there, I don't need to review

the data, it's correct and isn't going to change.

I've been working with a hardware vendor to get printing on the stage. Apple has rejected 2 plans we've submitted for a Apple->Serial cable

that would have hooked iOS devices to cheap ($30) label printers. They seem to insist on AirPrint or Bluetooth only, which currently means

$800+ per printer. No thanks. Apple, btw, if you haven't figured it out yet, can often suck to deal with.

I've run 3 large to very large matches with PractiScore, and score copying did not slow down the stage or match at all.

With a good process, the scorekeeper is waiting on the next shooter.

An easy fix to this is to permit uncertified helpers to copy the sheets with shooter verification. Requires a rule change for L3, but I've been

to matches (of some size) where this was done and it worked well.

But ultimately... just approve it on the device. It isn't going to change once there.

Ken N.

[moverfive]

Having used electronic scoring for many, many years and having actually been over stats for several Level II's.....here is the main problem with electronic scoring: lack of RO experience with the devices. When the Nationals first used the Palms for scoring, that was the first time that many RO's had used the Palms. While it isn't nuclear rocket brain surgery to use the Palms, it can require excessive time to do simple actions if you aren't familiar with the Palms, thus a VERY frustrating experience for the RO's. Without the proper experience, paper would probably be a better solution.

Next, whoever thought using and giving shooters those goofy scoring strips was a good idea, was off their rocker. I call those things pocket lint as they what they end up being, especially if there is inclement weather. So yes, if people base their experience off the use of pocket lint, I am sure it sucked for them.

I attached the scoresheets I have been using for years. Only the summary information is transferred from the device and that only takes a few seconds to do. The shooter can review the detail on the device prior to signing if they choose. Also, I intentionally kept the scoresheet generic (no actual stage name or listing of sponsors) in order to be able to use them year after year. And besides, how many people actually know a stage by its name......they typically only remember the stage number. And the same as Bill said he uses, we use the exact same size scoresheet as everyone is familiar with - except the layout is landscape versus portrait. This size allows plenty of room for anyone to make notes, comments, and etc on the white and/or yellow sheet.

The key to using electronic scoring for a Level II+ is having RO's familiar with the associated device. Next is for the scorekeeper to have a system in place to collect the data. And finally, and this is another issue, the scorekeeper needs to keep a backup device on them at all times. That way if something happens to a stage device, it can be swapped out immediately and allow the stage to continue.......then you can correct the device issue afterwards, as opposed to holding up the stage.

So many of the issues I have seen and heard of with electronic scoring just don't happen here for those above reasons....with most coming back to lack of experience using the electronic solution/device.

Stage Scoresheets.doc

[Ken N.]

On WiFi....

Last week I did a 140 person match (Ironman) with a battery, a router, and a Gator. No need to wifi the range. I just drove around, synched, on a schedule roughly faster than the squad stage times. The ROs would see me coming and sync in the DQs / squad changes.

Yes - wifi to the stat shack is nice - I love to just synch while catching up on my reading. But driving the router around let me meet lots of folks and see the shooting. Fun!

My setup was a Black and Decker Battery Pack and an $80 Netgear router. It rained hard, no worries, it was in a trash bag and bone-dry.

My staff... me.

Ken N.

[euxx]

With 21 pages thread, it is really time to chop it off to pieces: feature requests, issues, ideas, match reports and general feedback. Even get a dedicated sub-forum for all things related to PractiScore.

[Ken N.]

I'd be fine with that. I'm not an Enos pro. Somebody who is, have at it!

[wgnoyes]

On WiFi....

...

My setup was a Black and Decker Battery Pack and an $80 Netgear router. It rained hard, no worries, it was in a trash bag and bone-dry.

...

So B&D has a battery pack that you can plug AC devices into? Where? I don't see anything like that on their website, amongst all the cordless tool battery packs they tout.

[Ken N.]

Sorry... I was wrong, not B&D. Its back at my RV now, so I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure it was either the Duracell or the Xantrex on this link:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_scat_1253955011_ln?rh=n%3A1253955011%2Ck%3Abattery+pack&keywords=battery+pack&ie=UTF8&qid=1340214456&scn=1253955011&h=40965783c569721e68d5f37d3c8355bba6502772

Sorry for the confusion - I just recalled it being orange and associated it with Black and Decker.

Ken N.

[Mark K]

On WiFi....

...

My setup was a Black and Decker Battery Pack and an $80 Netgear router. It rained hard, no worries, it was in a trash bag and bone-dry.

...

So B&D has a battery pack that you can plug AC devices into? Where? I don't see anything like that on their website, amongst all the cordless tool battery packs they tout.

Bill, I got one of these, and it worked all day with a pocket router, and later with a Linksys home G router, with plenty of battery life to spare.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Trent-IMP500-External-Blackberry/dp/B0013G8PTS/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1328488743&sr=1-4

I did find that when a Nook ST lost Router connectivity, that it took a while once I walked up to it, for the device to show up on the master, but not more than about 40 seconds.

We are going to add one of these to the top of our Flag pole on the range:

http://www.amazon.com/Engenius-ENH200-Business-Wireless-Outdoor/dp/B004SBG48E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340216930&sr=8-1&keywords=enh-200

That is what Peter is using up at Cherokee, and JC Wren says it works pretty good. I may just put a hook on it, and run it up on the flag pole lanyard on match days, rather than leave it up for some jerk to shoot.

Mark K.

[Flexmoney]

That brings me to another issue shooters steps in the box, do I now have to look at a list to find out what division he/she is in to know what rules to apply? Just another one of those little things.

I had to ask the shooters that I was running, and assume they told me true.

I still think shooters need a sheet with targets numbers and scores for EACH target.

Yes, as a shooter, I had no idea what I was signing for. Kinda pointless to sign off, really.

[jcwren]

That brings me to another issue shooters steps in the box, do I now have to look at a list to find out what division he/she is in to know what rules to apply?

Ummm, no? PS displays the division & PF at the top of the screen.

[wgnoyes]

That brings me to another issue shooters steps in the box, do I now have to look at a list to find out what division he/she is in to know what rules to apply?

Ummm, no? PS displays the division & PF at the top of the screen.

Not on iOS. Not enough room on an iphone/ipod touch

[jcwren]

That brings me to another issue shooters steps in the box, do I now have to look at a list to find out what division he/she is in to know what rules to apply?

Ummm, no? PS displays the division & PF at the top of the screen.

Not on iOS. Not enough room on an iphone/ipod touch

What about on the previous page, when you select the shooter from the squad list?