Shooting too fast?

[pops1982]

Ok, I’ve been shooting limited for 15 months give or take. I was first classified at D class because I would spray and pray on the classifiers and the COF’s for that matter which is a recipe for misses and it cost me. I settled down 3 months or so ago and slowed down a bit and I am getting a good sight picture on most shots, better trigger control and a better grip and I improved to a C classification.

Now, the last couple of matches I’ve performed at a solid B classification. But my question is this, I noticed on a couple of the COF’s in Saturdays match which I shot well (like a solid B shooter would) with quick times and descent hits but I felt close to it becoming a train wreck. I mean I felt I was shooting right to the limit of how fast I could (maybe a smidge faster even) and still get descent hits.

Do you feel this way sometimes during COF’s? Is the good/normal or am I going too fast?

Thanks for your input.

Dean

[chaosshooter00]

I have been shooting about six months longer than you and I would say that it is natural evolution. You never know how fast you can go until you hit the wall, then back off just a bit and shoot on. It makes me nervous to be on the edge of control, but the hits are there. I notice it more on classifiers than CoF. All my "mentors" say to try and stay comfortable, but I get the feeling I want to go faster and scorecards let me know when it's too fast. If it wasn't for trial and error, we'd all be GM's.

[blaster113]

good rule of thumb is to shoot fast enough so you can get 90% of the available stage points. If you are getting less than that slow down a little. trick is to find that fine line between control and speed. I push a little in practice then back it off when I start to get too many C/D's.

[pops1982]

I have been shooting about six months longer than you and I would say that it is natural evolution. You never know how fast you can go until you hit the wall, then back off just a bit and shoot on. It makes me nervous to be on the edge of control, but the hits are there. I notice it more on classifiers than CoF. All my "mentors" say to try and stay comfortable, but I get the feeling I want to go faster and scorecards let me know when it's too fast. If it wasn't for trial and error, we'd all be GM's.

Yeah, I was nervous during the COF because I felt I was shooting and moving as fast as I possibly could and still get the hits and that's my question, do most of you push your limits on each COF or not trying to be the best you can be?

[pops1982]

good rule of thumb is to shoot fast enough so you can get 90% of the available stage points. If you are getting less than that slow down a little. trick is to find that fine line between control and speed. I push a little in practice then back it off when I start to get too many C/D's.

Makes sense. I had a good number of A's but more C's and not many D's and I think 3 mikes total on 5 COFs. Two mikes were one on each of two swingers and 1 steel I left standing because I forgot about it. I think it was solid shooting effort for a B shooter which is where I'm trying to go.

[twodownzero]

good rule of thumb is to shoot fast enough so you can get 90% of the available stage points. If you are getting less than that slow down a little. trick is to find that fine line between control and speed. I push a little in practice then back it off when I start to get too many C/D's.

This is great advice. I have been working on exactly that; on the last match, I shot 85% of the available points and I was very happy with that.

I'll take all the C hits I can get, but I consider Ds to be no penalty mikes (so I proverbially slap myself when I get them).

[blaster113]

85% of avail. points isnt bad. an occasional C/D won't hurt but too many will really drive your score down, especially if shooting minor. but, I'll take D's over misses anytime

[chaosshooter00]

I have been shooting about six months longer than you and I would say that it is natural evolution. You never know how fast you can go until you hit the wall, then back off just a bit and shoot on. It makes me nervous to be on the edge of control, but the hits are there. I notice it more on classifiers than CoF. All my "mentors" say to try and stay comfortable, but I get the feeling I want to go faster and scorecards let me know when it's too fast. If it wasn't for trial and error, we'd all be GM's.

Yeah, I was nervous during the COF because I felt I was shooting and moving as fast as I possibly could and still get the hits and that's my question, do most of you push your limits on each COF or not trying to be the best you can be?

I push hard during practice and our monthly matches, but I do tend to slow down at the larger matches. My times are usually toward the top three across the board, but my points show where I push too hard. It's a fine line and I appreciate you bringing this to post so more of us can get other people's opinions. I'm one of the younger guys in the club at 40 and occasionally get tired of hearing "It will come, be patient." The only person that knows your comfort zone is you and as long as you're safe, keep shooting.

[mikeg1005]

But my question is this, I noticed on a couple of the COF’s in Saturdays match which I shot well (like a solid B shooter would) with quick times and descent hits but I felt close to it becoming a train wreck.

There is a difference between losing control and losing control... I have experienced what you are talking about a few times, its a pretty cool feeling, you feel like you have lost control but your mind/body still does what it needs to and does it well.

The answer to your question... let your performance dictate your speed... If you are running as you say "borderline train wreck" but performing well and not crossing that threshold, then there is no reason to change anything. But if you feel yourself start to slip, turn it down a little.

Always strive for 100% of the points on the stage, shoot them as fast as you can see them... everything else go to warp speed.

You say your hits are decent... consider improving this to "good"... Saving time by sacrificing points is not worth it, the time it takes to hit the average alpha vs. the average C/D/M is almost the same if you have your fundementals down, A LOT of time savings can be found in your non-shooting stuff (draw, reloads, movement, shooting positions, stage break down)

The "get 95% of your hits" is not a point to strive for, but rather a minimum to fall back on... Strive for 100% and never settle for less than 90-95% is a better way to look at it.

Mike.

[CHA-LEE]

If you shoot as fast as you can call your shots, that is as fast as you should go. If you want to physically shoot faster then you need to start seeing faster so you can effectively call your shots. If you are seeing your sights for the first shot and when simply pulling the trigger twice and hoping that your second shot will be there, you are doing it all wrong. You need to treat each shot as a separate event. Once you treat each shot as a separate event then it becomes a lot easier to call each shot.

If you are not capturing at least 95% of the points on each stage regardless of how fast or slow you shoot, then you are not seeing enough while shooting. For example, pulling the trigger once your sights are on "Brown" is a good way of giving away a lot of stage points. If you are not actively aiming at a specific point on the target then you will always sacrifice way too many points.

[AR Gunner]

If you shoot as fast as you can call your shots, that is as fast as you should go. If you want to physically shoot faster then you need to start seeing faster so you can effectively call your shots. If you are seeing your sights for the first shot and when simply pulling the trigger twice and hoping that your second shot will be there, you are doing it all wrong. You need to treat each shot as a separate event. Once you treat each shot as a separate event then it becomes a lot easier to call each shot.

If you are not capturing at least 95% of the points on each stage regardless of how fast or slow you shoot, then you are not seeing enough while shooting. For example, pulling the trigger once your sights are on "Brown" is a good way of giving away a lot of stage points. If you are not actively aiming at a specific point on the target then you will always sacrifice way too many points.

Well said. Thank you.

[pops1982]

But my question is this, I noticed on a couple of the COF’s in Saturdays match which I shot well (like a solid B shooter would) with quick times and descent hits but I felt close to it becoming a train wreck.

There is a difference between losing control and losing control... I have experienced what you are talking about a few times, its a pretty cool feeling, you feel like you have lost control but your mind/body still does what it needs to and does it well.

The answer to your question... let your performance dictate your speed... If you are running as you say "borderline train wreck" but performing well and not crossing that threshold, then there is no reason to change anything. But if you feel yourself start to slip, turn it down a little.

Always strive for 100% of the points on the stage, shoot them as fast as you can see them... everything else go to warp speed.

You say your hits are decent... consider improving this to "good"... Saving time by sacrificing points is not worth it, the time it takes to hit the average alpha vs. the average C/D/M is almost the same if you have your fundementals down, A LOT of time savings can be found in your non-shooting stuff (draw, reloads, movement, shooting positions, stage break down)

The "get 95% of your hits" is not a point to strive for, but rather a minimum to fall back on... Strive for 100% and never settle for less than 90-95% is a better way to look at it.

Mike.

If you shoot as fast as you can call your shots, that is as fast as you should go. If you want to physically shoot faster then you need to start seeing faster so you can effectively call your shots. If you are seeing your sights for the first shot and when simply pulling the trigger twice and hoping that your second shot will be there, you are doing it all wrong. You need to treat each shot as a separate event. Once you treat each shot as a separate event then it becomes a lot easier to call each shot.

If you are not capturing at least 95% of the points on each stage regardless of how fast or slow you shoot, then you are not seeing enough while shooting. For example, pulling the trigger once your sights are on "Brown" is a good way of giving away a lot of stage points. If you are not actively aiming at a specific point on the target then you will always sacrifice way too many points.

Thanks for the input mikeg1005 & CHA-LEE. I've just now gotten to the point to where I feel I can start refinning things. I agree, and have just recently become aware, that I must get a good sight picture for each shot and also aim at a specific part of the target (A zone) and not just anything brown. I'm thinkng now the way I shot the matches recently I will have to slow down a bit to strive for 100% of the points.

[Torogi]

If you shoot as fast as you can call your shots, that is as fast as you should go. If you want to physically shoot faster then you need to start seeing faster so you can effectively call your shots. If you are seeing your sights for the first shot and when simply pulling the trigger twice and hoping that your second shot will be there, you are doing it all wrong. You need to treat each shot as a separate event. Once you treat each shot as a separate event then it becomes a lot easier to call each shot.

If you are not capturing at least 95% of the points on each stage regardless of how fast or slow you shoot, then you are not seeing enough while shooting. For example, pulling the trigger once your sights are on "Brown" is a good way of giving away a lot of stage points. If you are not actively aiming at a specific point on the target then you will always sacrifice way too many points.

Cha-lee, ive been following your post regarding sights, i'd be changing to the regular black serrated front coming from F/O. I find that with the front sight being somewhat a distraction, It has the most effect on what I actually 'see'.

[Grunt]

...but I felt close to it becoming a train wreck. I mean I felt I was shooting right to the limit of how fast I could (maybe a smidge faster even) and still get descent hits.

Give some thought to this. If you felt it, do you mean emotionally? Like, "holy crap this is way too fast!" Feelings are unreliable, seeing is everything. If what you see looks good, then it doesn't matter how you feel emotionally.

Also, a lot of our abilities are naturally governed by our personality and temperament. Some folks have to tamp down the urge to pull the trigger with reckless abandon. Others are more reserved (that's me) and they need to find a way to push themselves to realize their ability. Moving beyond these natural tendencies can tax our emotions, especially during a match. Just because you feel uncomfortable forcing yourself to slow down, or speed up is not a bad thing.

Grunt

[Sean Gaines]

If you shoot as fast as you can call your shots, that is as fast as you should go. If you want to physically shoot faster then you need to start seeing faster so you can effectively call your shots. If you are seeing your sights for the first shot and when simply pulling the trigger twice and hoping that your second shot will be there, you are doing it all wrong. You need to treat each shot as a separate event. Once you treat each shot as a separate event then it becomes a lot easier to call each shot.

If you are not capturing at least 95% of the points on each stage regardless of how fast or slow you shoot, then you are not seeing enough while shooting. For example, pulling the trigger once your sights are on "Brown" is a good way of giving away a lot of stage points. If you are not actively aiming at a specific point on the target then you will always sacrifice way too many points.

What "big panda" said

look at the major match scores and see what the overall winner did as far as his point percentage, you will find he was typically 95%+ of the available points.

Its ok to shoot fast and out of control, in practice! Actually its a good thing! In practice always push the threshold, and then pull it back a little, and you will see some pretty good gains. In fact you will feel that you are in slow motion, but your times will not reflect it!

[Steve Anderson]

Guys, please do not ever try to consciously control your speed in a match. Slowing down is just as bad as speeding up.

Call every shot.

The reason you must forget about speed is that it cannot be properly evaluated while it is happening.

It bugs me when people say "slow down and get your points."

No. Get your points.

The slowing down will (may) be a natural function of SEEING more, which is what is really required.

Slowing down is not the point.

Seeing more is.

Words mean things, so we need to use the right ones.

Sorry, it's a sore subject for me...

[Grunt]

Guys, please do not ever try to consciously control your speed in a match. Slowing down is just as bad as speeding up.

Steve, I like what you are saying, especially about seeing. But let me pick your brain a bit more. I do agree that seeing is essential and short of that is a risky proposition. However, have you ever found yourself shooting too conservatively in a match? For me, I never consciously tried to shoot slower, but found it happening at times. Sometimes I just didn't have my mind in the game, other times, I think match nerves made me too cautious. I found that pushing myself, mentally, to not get lazy during a COF typically produced positive (faster) results without a loss of points. Granted, this is different than physically pushing yourself beyond what you can see, but it was still a conscious decision/action which resulted in the desired effect. Likewise, I remember a conversation with Rob where he said he dealt with the opposite problem; shooting beyond his ability to see what he needed to see. He had to consciously remind himself to use the sights on the more difficult shots.

With that all said, what are your thoughts on such conscious decisions (prior to shooting) and conscious actions (while shooting)? I know that so much of what we do is at a subconscious level, but have found that there is an element of conscious decisions/actions while shooting. Thoughts?

Grunt

[Steve Anderson]

Grunt,

I've been thinking for a day or so about the best to answer your question... I think we may be getting into personality types a little bit.

For me, there isn't room for anything else other than visualization of the stage and the desire to call every shot.

And for me, anything else (actively) on the mind is gonna be less than desirable...

Does that help?

[Flexmoney]

Grunt, maybe try think of your shooting as being separate than your mental arousal level.

[Steven Cline]

Ok, Ive been shooting limited for 15 months give or take. I was first classified at D class because I would spray and pray on the classifiers and the COFs for that matter which is a recipe for misses and it cost me. I settled down 3 months or so ago and slowed down a bit and I am getting a good sight picture on most shots, better trigger control and a better grip and I improved to a C classification.

Now, the last couple of matches Ive performed at a solid B classification. But my question is this, I noticed on a couple of the COFs in Saturdays match which I shot well (like a solid B shooter would) with quick times and descent hits but I felt close to it becoming a train wreck. I mean I felt I was shooting right to the limit of how fast I could (maybe a smidge faster even) and still get descent hits.

Do you feel this way sometimes during COFs? Is the good/normal or am I going too fast?

Thanks for your input.

Dean

I think that if you are getting 90% of the stages points, give or take a tiny bit, as fast as you can, you are shooting as well as you can and should expect.

I understand that feeling of tiptoing across the ragged edge of oblivion, but that's where my HHF lays.

What others above are saying about seeing being the only limit on speed is dead on, and from their classification you can take it to heart.

Taking no more time than to see what you need to see will feel, at first maybe, like almost out of control, but maybe the GMs will tell you that place gets more comfortable. I don't know, I'm not the top of the world. Maybe it never will be comfortable, because if it does that might mean someone else just got fast because they trained to the point that both your comfortables were the same and they pushed it further.

I'll let better shooters opine further.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Steven Cline

[CHA-LEE]

Getting accustomed to doing anything faster is all about repetition and experience. Its easy to understand if you use driving a car as an example. When you drive 75mph on the highway you feel 100% in control and relaxed. 75mph on the highway is what you consider "Normal". If you bump up your speed to 120mph, you become hyper sensitive and alert to the situation. You do this because going 120mph is "Abnormal" and strange. Other than the obvious speed difference a lot of this "Strangeness" is because you now have to readjust all of your sensory and visual input/output to function correctly at the new 120mph speed. For example, you have to look further head. Instead of looking 100 - 200 yards ahead at 75mph, now you have to look 300 - 400 yards ahead in order to have enough time to react properly to changing road or traffic conditions. Another example is in how the car now reacts differently to steering, brake, and throttle inputs not to mention how the car reacts to the same old road conditions you may be able to run over easily at 75mph. This "Driving a car faster" analogy is not much different than "Shooting faster". When you shoot faster, just like with driving faster, you need to see more and understand that things feel and react differently. The key here is that the longer you put yourself into this "Faster" mode of shooting, the more repetition and experience you gain. So in order to shoot faster effectively, you must shoot fast ineffectively until you learn what you need to change mechanically and visually to make it work properly.

An even easier analogy to this is think about how differently your leg, body, and arm motions are when you walk, jog, and flat out run. You can't apply the same physical mechanics or strategy to every one of those movement conditions and expect it to work properly. Adaptation of many things is needed to optimize each type of movement. Shooting fast and slow is really no different.

[Grunt]

Grunt,

I've been thinking for a day or so about the best to answer your question... I think we may be getting into personality types a little bit.

For me, there isn't room for anything else other than visualization of the stage and the desire to call every shot.

And for me, anything else (actively) on the mind is gonna be less than desirable...

Does that help?

Thanks Steve, that does that help. And I do agree that we're getting into personality types or temperaments. A key factor as we refine our skill set.

Grunt, maybe try think of your shooting as being separate than your mental arousal level.

Flex money, I think you nailed it. Many thanks for that link, and likewise to Steve for posting it. I think this exactly what I found myself doing. I remember first recognizing this in practice sessions when I would shoot very different times on the same drills. There was a clear difference in my sense of focus on the task at hand. When I ran one fast, it was due to a sense of urgency or aggressiveness that placed on myself. Naturally, this mental technique followed into matches. As I did the course walk-through, I found myself looking at each shooting position not only to studying the target sequence, target distances, where to stand, etc., but I also found myself really pushing myself to be aggressive and shoot/transition to what I thought I was capable of. Even in mid-run I recalled running up to a shooting position and saying to myself (or maybe conceptualizing) my plan; "...hammer the first target, quickly get onto the popper, focus on the distant target, then hammer the last target..." It was weird, but it worked. When I didn't do this, my times were slower.

I haven't heard of "mental arousal level" before, but now I'm intrigued. I need to study this more as I can see it being applied to other disciplines as well. Again, many thanks.

Grunt

[Xander]

Guys, please do not ever try to consciously control your speed in a match. Slowing down is just as bad as speeding up.

Call every shot.

The reason you must forget about speed is that it cannot be properly evaluated while it is happening.

It bugs me when people say "slow down and get your points."

No. Get your points.

The slowing down will (may) be a natural function of SEEING more, which is what is really required.

Slowing down is not the point.

Seeing more is.

Words mean things, so we need to use the right ones.

Sorry, it's a sore subject for me...

I totally agree with this, coz the last 2 matches I had I told myself to slow down and call every shots. What happened is everything slows down, my reaction, body movement etc, although I got good hits. "What your mind perceive your body can achieve." So now, I'll just focus more on saying to myself to move quickly with no rush and allow my vision to shoot.

Here's some vids of my last match that I was in slow mode

[pops1982]

Thanks everyone for your input here, good stuff. After reading the replies I now realize the sense of fear of a train wreck during the COF was me worrying about going too fast to see what I needed to see. I was just on the edge.

[pops1982]

I think that if you are getting 90% of the stages points, give or take a tiny bit, as fast as you can, you are shooting as well as you can and should expect.

I understand that feeling of tiptoing across the ragged edge of oblivion, but that's where my HHF lays.

What others above are saying about seeing being the only limit on speed is dead on, and from their classification you can take it to heart.

Taking no more time than to see what you need to see will feel, at first maybe, like almost out of control, but maybe the GMs will tell you that place gets more comfortable. I don't know, I'm not the top of the world. Maybe it never will be comfortable, because if it does that might mean someone else just got fast because they trained to the point that both your comfortables were the same and they pushed it further.

I'll let better shooters opine further.

Thanks, this nails if for me and is what I've been doing (at least trying to do) recently but I had not put the action into words. This really helps.