High Lord Gomer Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Another reason for posting all of these pics is to make sure that it does indeed look like a double charge and not firing out of battery. I do use extra power striker springs but I also use stock recoil springs (approx 1.5 years old with approx 5000 rounds through this one). Also, if I don't send this to S&W, any suggestions on getting this thing apart? As you can see, it won't go forward enough to go into battery and allow the slide to come off. Should I just take the pin out and try to lift the sear block out of the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I don't want to sound like a prick but how would this failure be in any way shape or form S&W's responsibility to "Take Care Of"? That amount of damage can only be caused by a compressed double charge. If I had to bet on who would be more probable in producing a compressed double charged round it wouldn't be Winchester. This is an expensive, and thankfully not an injuring, lesson to pay close attention when reloading your ammunition. Far too many people slip into a distracted vegetative mental state when reloading because its monotonous and boring then end up paying the price with these kind of dangerous failures. Keep alert and pay attention to what you are doing while reloading or suffer the consequences. Be thankful that nobody was seriously injured during this accident. Guns can easily be replaced. Fingers, hands, eyes, and other body parts are not easily replaced once damaged. It's not their responsibility, but they may help the OP out in the interest of customer service. I wouldn't try to pull one over on them, but it can't hurt to be honest and ask what they'll do for you. They may offer to fix it at their parts cost, which will be much less than paying retail for a new gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I agree that its more likely a reloaded round that caused the KB, I would by no means discount the possibility of it being a WWB round. I work at an indoor range and have seen numerous WWB problems in the last few months. I have seen at least a half dozen squibs, an equal amount of damaged cases that wouldnt come close to chambering and a few dozen upside down primers. I would not put it past them to let overcharged rounds to slide past QC. I wont run it in anything I own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Be upfront with your take on what happened and how it happened and..... send it back to S&W. Who's fault - who knows but I would think they would be interested in seeing the gun and their engineer's would all have something to discuss at the water cooler...... I would tell them what kind of powder your reloads are and what your intended charge was and what it would be if you actually had a double charge. Engineers like this kind of stuff.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67 LS1 Camaro Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Lol: I'm anal but I draw the line at case gauging factory ammo. Factory ammo ? Did mwx40x40 say factory ammo? My bad . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herk Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Be upfront with your take on what happened and how it happened and..... send it back to S&W. Who's fault - who knows but I would think they would be interested in seeing the gun and their engineer's would all have something to discuss at the water cooler...... I would tell them what kind of powder your reloads are and what your intended charge was and what it would be if you actually had a double charge. Engineers like this kind of stuff.... This. Be up front about what happened and see what they do for you. Worst case scenario they tell you that reloads make it your problem and refuse to help you (i.e.: you're no better or worse off than before). IME, gun companies will generally help you out if you call them up and say "Hi, I did a bonehead thing and wrecked my gun!" They want to be remembered as the guys who helped you out when you needed it. Give S&W the chance to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braxton1 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [They want to be remembered as the guys who helped you out when you needed it. Give S&W the chance to do that. EXACTLY. Glock is one of the most-adamant companies around about "don't fire reloads in our guns". In accordance with the rules, you're not even supposed to shoot reloads in their sponsored matches (GSSF). But, like it has been said before, they will usually repair the gun at a SIGNIFICANTLY discounted rate compared to a new gun. That kind of service goes a long way on cementing one's reputation in an industry. Just ask Mike Dillon about his "No B.S. Warranty" on his products! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangedays Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Send it back to S&W for what? So they can throw it in the trash for you? That pistol is done. Time to buy a new one. I don't get why everyone is saying to call smith and wesson or winchester so they can take care of your mistake? Pass the crap onto the next guy instead of making sure it won't happen again? I am sorry but its your bed now sleep in it knowing that it could have been worse letting your kid shoot the gun without being more observant to what you were doing in the reloading room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maksim Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I don't think anyone is trying to pass the buck. You do realize S&W might want to hear of how their guns performed or what. Worst thing that happens, is S&W says tough crap, thanks for being a customer, go buy another gun. Best case, they might want to inspect the gun, and study it. Offer the OP a discount on a new one or what. Personally, I am extremely glad I installed the RCBS lockout die. Prevents stuff like this from happening. On the old Lee Classic Turret never had issues, on the auto progressives, things have a way of happening. RCBS lockout die, the best, cheapest $15 insurance policy ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98006 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Send it back to SW.Tell them what happened. The T&E guys might be interested in seeing it. They might do something for you, or maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyGlock Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I read a lot of similar kaboom topics in lots of threads/fora, What is noticeable is that when this thing happens to a Glock every one blames the gun. When it happens to another gun, everybody blames the ammo. sorry, couldnt resist... anyway, Im glad every one is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I guess I just dont get it. This isn't a $3,000 high end custom gun. Its an inexpensive production gun. I am not saying that because its inexpensive its expected to fail or is a piece of crap. I happen to really like the M&P pistols and think they are great. My point is that if you step back and put the cost of buying a new gun on your own dime to replace this one into perspective of the big picture the cost of a new gun is nothing. The owner said he had shot 5000 rounds though this gun and thought that the springs may be worn out. 5000 x 0.14 = $700. He has shot almost twice the value of the gun through it in ammunition. And this is only with shooting 5000 rounds. We are not even talking about all the other costs associated with shooting to come up with a real $$$ cost that went into shooting those 5000 rounds either. If you pulled in all the other costs its probably closer to $1500 to shoot 5000 rounds. The cost of the gun its self is really not much at all in the big picture. So why penny pinch and whine to the manufactures looking for a "Tuff Luck" hand out??? If this happend to me, I would leave the gun as is and write it off as a good lesson learned. Then I would mount the gun on the wall right behind my reloading press as a constant reminder to pay attention while reloading. A constant reminder like that is priceless in the long run if it keeps this situation from ever happening again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) Ignore the guys saying toss it (Thought better of it. Thanks Strangedays) If it was my product I would want to see it and evaluate what happened. Do take a picture of it and hang it above your press though. Its good to hear everyone involved is OK and I hope S&W rebuilds/replaces your M&P and charges a modest fee. (As would Dillon and most really good companies.) Keith Edited October 27, 2011 by midvalleyshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damol Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Glad your son is OK, and I would not bother to send it back to S&W. I think I would just eat the loss and buy another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangedays Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) Ignore the Libertarians and send the gun to S&W If it was my product I would want to see it and evaluate what happened. Do take a picture of it and hang it above your press though. Its good to hear everyone involved is OK and I hope S&W rebuilds your M&P and charges a modest fee. Keith Ignore the commifornians and eat the loss because thats what people do when they screw up. If anyone is to blame its the guy who reloaded the damn bullet and had his son shoot it. "Libertarian" really you want to go there? Rebuild what, The gun is a loss. I think the gun should be mounted above the reloading press to remind yourself what happens when you screw up! Edited October 27, 2011 by strangedays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67 LS1 Camaro Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Ignore the Libertarians and send the gun to S&W If it was my product I would want to see it and evaluate what happened. Do take a picture of it and hang it above your press though. Its good to hear everyone involved is OK and I hope S&W rebuilds your M&P and charges a modest fee. Keith Ignore the commifornians and eat the loss because thats what people do when they screw up. If anyone is to blame its the guy who reloaded the damn bullet and had his son shoot it. "Libertarian" really you want to go there? Rebuild what, The gun is a loss. I think the gun should be mounted above the reloading press to remind yourself what happens when you screw up! Yep. Ignorance is what caused the Kaboom ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke8401 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 It's not their responsibility, but they may help the OP out in the interest of customer service. I wouldn't try to pull one over on them, but it can't hurt to be honest and ask what they'll do for you. They may offer to fix it at their parts cost, which will be much less than paying retail for a new gun. +1 My game plan would be: Tell them you think it was your fault because of a double charge. Let them know you appreciate the safe design and no real injury occurred. Your son is a new/up coming shooter and likes the M+P. Any help in repairing the pistol would be appreciated and if it not repairable could they possibly give you a discount on a new one. I bet the outcome would be good. David E. An expert at getting my way. Admitting fault and asking for help goes a long way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWF Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 glad to hear the young man was out shooting the next day! for what is worth, after my first divorce i had to sale most of my guns. i sold my super red hawk to my boss who loved to brag about his super hot 357 loads. well it did not take him long to blow apart a huge over built 44 mag, most of the cylinder was gone, the very thick top strap had good 1/2 or better bow in it. ruger sent him a new pistol. i am sure to this day he will still say he was using factory ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Ignoring all the crap in the thread that implies it would be immoral to contact S&W to see if they'd be willing to help... There's a strong reason to contact S&W, depending on what state you live in... Serial number. If S&W is willing to provide the service, they could sell you a new gun with the same serial number as this one (essentially, they replace the frame as a service action, and charge you whatever they need to for the parts, labor, etc - could be as much as a new gun). This would allow you to send the gun back and forth without a need to visit an FFL, etc, and all the attendant paperwork, waiting periods, restrictions on number of guns you can buy in a month, whatever... Where things like this get douchey is when guys call up a gun company and tell them factory ammo did this to their gun, and the gun must be defective, blah blah blah. That's not the case, here. Seems like the OP is owning the mistake, and just wants to see if anything can done to get the silly thing apart again so that he can salvage some parts. If they can remake the gun again, and are willing to do it (for whatever fee is appropriate), why not let them? And... hell yeah, you can seat a bullet on top of that powder charge. If you're not paying attention, that bullet will seat easily, and you get this sort of situation. I've also seen a Glock M20 come apart with a light charge of 540 (detonation effect in large capacity case - happens in revos sometimes, too). It had similar effects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Does it look like it could have fired out of battery? Several people on his squad said it didn't sound any different than the previous 4 rounds. I'm not looking to place blame, I just want to figure out exactly what happened. Regardless, I am being much more careful about my reloading, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Wow Mike. Just Wow. Glad your son is OK. I can totally see him going out and shooting the next day! Nothing is going to stop that kid. Since everyone is ok, except the gun, I'll throw in my jab: I guess I made a good decision last year by not taking you up on that offer to show me how to reload! Sorry...couldn't resist. Seriously though, glad you are both OK. This is one of the big reasons I like Vhit N320. A double charge of > 4gns will overflow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Does it look like it could have fired out of battery? No... Look carefully at that picture of the brass, and it tells the tale (if the cracked slide wasn't also a clue). A normal round fired out of battery will act much like any other case failure - it'll tend to blow out the mag, and blow out the case. It might cause some minor damage to things and might sting your hand a little, but that's about it. What you have here is obvious over pressure damage. The case head is fully seated below the hood (which suggests the gun was in battery, BTW), and the lower half of the case head is highly deformed (usually, this kind of case damage wouldn't happen if the gun was out of battery, either - the pressure wouldn't be contained enough to let it build like that). Heck, the case head has been blown out so hard, it conforms to the breechface! (look at the squared off left side of the case head...). Unfortunately, this is what a double charge of fast powder does, not a gun firing out of battery If you were so inclined, and had a vise and a rubber mallet, you could probably get the gun apart.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Does it look like it could have fired out of battery? No... Look carefully at that picture of the brass, and it tells the tale (if the cracked slide wasn't also a clue). A normal round fired out of battery will act much like any other case failure - it'll tend to blow out the mag, and blow out the case. It might cause some minor damage to things and might sting your hand a little, but that's about it. What you have here is obvious over pressure damage. The case head is fully seated below the hood (which suggests the gun was in battery, BTW), and the lower half of the case head is highly deformed (usually, this kind of case damage wouldn't happen if the gun was out of battery, either - the pressure wouldn't be contained enough to let it build like that). Heck, the case head has been blown out so hard, it conforms to the breechface! (look at the squared off left side of the case head...). Unfortunately, this is what a double charge of fast powder does, not a gun firing out of battery If you were so inclined, and had a vise and a rubber mallet, you could probably get the gun apart.... Wow Dave, that is cool. Do you think the barrel is okay? If it isn't cracked and mics out to factory specs, it could probably be used again don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krdshrk Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Do you know what brass you used for your reloads, or was it just mixed brass? You CAN get messed up loads from factory ammo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 By the way: here's 9 grains TG in a 9mm case. Sorta hard to double charge. Not hard to double charge. That load will compress with a seated bullet and with TG--Well, we see the damage. TG is a nasty powder when overcharged. TG has nitro in it. Just glad no one was seriously hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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