6 O'Clock Hold

[sweaty_jesus]

Can someone please educate me about the 6 O'Clock hold? What is it and why should I use it? Thanks!

[dover0020]

A six o'clock hold refers to your sight alignment on a target. The idea of this is your hold would be below the desired area you wish to hit. For instance if you were shooting a six inch plate you would hold at the bottom of the plate to hit it in the middle. Personally I don't use this method but my understanding is some people use it because it allows them to see where they are aiming instead of that area being covered up by the front sight. Hope this helps, I am by no means an expert but this is how the concept has been explained to me.

[Matt Cheely]

Not useful in the game we play.

[Amerflyer48]

In Sports where the target is a consistent size and distance away it is a useful way of aiming..

Bullseye shooting comes to mind where the white paper makes the sights easier to see vs. black sights on black bull and fine tune alignment the bulls eye is balanced like a dot on an I however if you shoot at a different sized bullseye or the distance changes,..you must re zero the firearm, most bullseye shooters have red dot optics these days so one less thing to worry about my S&W 52 got adjusted from the 25 yd. to 50 yd. String of fire quite a few times back in the day as a midrange wadcutter arcs something fierce.

Some trap shooters will use a variant to this by having their shotguns pattern higher than the sight plane so they can see a rising target

PPC shooters at longer distances would sometimes utilize a variation of this called a "neck hold" on a B-27 Silhouette but if their target wasn't tacked up with a plumb bob ( canted) or they canted their revolver in any degree the shots would miss laterally

As stated above it doesn't work too well for our sport with the varying distances and sizes of targets and fast pace

I fear it is becoming part of shooting history only old timers talk about, like staging a S&W revolver trigger before the shot and carbide sight black

Hope this description helps,

John

[Biloxi23]

Man, I must be an old timer because I was originally taught the 6 o'clock hold by the Marine corps 40 or so years ago. And I do remember carbide lamps and the soot that was used to blacken the sights. And when I first started in law enforcement we were using Smith and Wesson Model 66-1's, and most all fo the proficent shooter used to two-stage the double action pull. Our qualification course was even teh old PPC Long Course that involved shooting 12 rounds at 50 yards. The six o'clock hold allows for you to see exactly where yur sights are when teh shot breaks, but becomes more and more difficult as the time allowed decreases. For those of us that are "old guys," the PPC and military courses were extremely generous when it came to time allowed to fire a course of fire. Military was almost always power and accuracy, and PPC was almosty all accuracy. .38 wadcutters in 4 or six in Smiths were the rule. If I remember the load right, it was a 148 grain hollo-based wadcutter over 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Not too fast, but I don't know if there is a more predictable pistol load around.

[sweaty_jesus]

You guys are great, as usual. Thanks for the help!

[benos]

For IPSC-style shooting, sighting your gun in so it shoots "dead on" at 15 yards is usually ideal. Dead on: if you shot a 10 shot group at 15 yards, the center of the group would be at the top of the front sight.

be

[ihatepickles]

carbide sight black

I still use a Ray-vin carbide sight blacker. It scares everyone at the safety area table away.

[Sin-ster]

Wait, wait...

What's a revolver?

[grapemeister]

A 6 o'clock hold is the way to go. That's the way I was taught many years ago. Even though for the last few years I've been shooting an XD with factory fixed sights which are not set up for a 6 0'clock hold, I still have to remind myself on occasion that the little white dot goes right on top, or covers up what ever I intend to shoot. I was reminded of this recently when I placed two shots about 1/2 inch from a no-shoot. Of course, I forgot about my factory setup, and was aiming at a spot about two inches higher. I don't know what kind of hold that is called when the sight covers up the spot your aiming at. Whatever it's called, I don't like it very much. A 6 o'clock, or maybe even a center hold seems more natural and makes more since to me.

[inkballedtarget]

Man, I must be an old timer because I was originally taught the 6 o'clock hold by the Marine corps 40 or so years ago. And I do remember carbide lamps and the soot that was used to blacken the sights. And when I first started in law enforcement we were using Smith and Wesson Model 66-1's, and most all fo the proficent shooter used to two-stage the double action pull. Our qualification course was even teh old PPC Long Course that involved shooting 12 rounds at 50 yards. The six o'clock hold allows for you to see exactly where yur sights are when teh shot breaks, but becomes more and more difficult as the time allowed decreases. For those of us that are "old guys," the PPC and military courses were extremely generous when it came to time allowed to fire a course of fire. Military was almost always power and accuracy, and PPC was almosty all accuracy. .38 wadcutters in 4 or six in Smiths were the rule. If I remember the load right, it was a 148 grain hollo-based wadcutter over 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Not too fast, but I don't know if there is a more predictable pistol load around.

This was a very interesting bit of info! Thanks

[scott e]

I have always wondered about this myself. I shoot my limited like my open in that I put the front sight on what I want to hit. From the discuss I gather that is what you mean. If not could you go into more detail?

[grapemeister]

See the little yellow smiley face in the sights of the gun to the left? If you wanted to hit the smiley face using a 6 o'clock hold, the smiley face would be sitting on top of your front sight. Of course, the sights have to be setup for a 6 o'clock hold. Some people like to set thier sights up so the top of the sights split the smiley face in half. I may be mistaken, but I believe that is called a center hold. Most popular factory guns with fixed sights are setup so the little white dot on the front sight would cover up the smiley face. I think most open gun shooters zero thier sights so the red dot covers up, or is right on top of the spot they are aiming at, but I haven't taken a poll.

This reminds me of the time I was teaching a new shooter about proper sight pictures. He too had an XD with factory fixed sights and white dots. I drew a red dot about an inch in diameter on a piece of paper set out at about 7 yards. I told him to line up the sights so the red dot was sitting on top of the imaginary line that went across the top of his sights. Almost all of the 1st few shots went into the same hole but just below the red dot. A bit discouraged he asked me why all of his shots were low. It then dawned on me that I was teaching him a 6 o'clock hold, and of course the shots would be lower since the factory sights weren't setup for a 6 o'clock hold. Since I was suppose to be the instructor, I felt like an idiot.

Oh, by the way. The picture to the left is not an example of any kind of hold. The smiley face is the front sight. I like happy sights!

Edited October 21, 2011 by grapemiester

[Sarge]

I guess there is some credence to not wanting to shoot too low. Some guys get excited in matches and jerk triggers etc causing low shots. This can hurt you on targets with no shoots stapled to the front of them. In that scenario it would be better to have the gun print a little high.

When I put new sights on my G34 it printed about two inches high if I recall. I quickly got used to, and liked the fact, that the rounds were impacting up in my field of view.

[jeep45238]

I use the pumpkin on a post (6 o'clock) when shooting rifles for accuracy beyond 100 yards. Everything else is 12 oclock hold (center of mass hold).

[Unregistered]

Does using a 6 O'Clock hold on a production pistol make it that much more difficult to transition to a open pistol with a classic C-more mount?

[MustangGreg66]

When I put new sights on my G34 it printed about two inches high if I recall. I quickly got used to, and liked the fact, that the rounds were impacting up in my field of view.

I do the same thing. I setup my G34 and 35 so that I can put the front sight at the bottom of the plate on the plate rack at 15 yds and hit center. For a 7yd "upper A/B" shot I'm aiming just a little below the bottom perf of the upper A zone to hit the A. I find this way I can more easily look past the sights to see my hits if I need/want to. I'm at the point where I can mostly call my shots, but I also want a visual confirmation of the hits if I don't call As. Probably a little slower, but that's where I'm at.

I absolutly hate factory sights with white dots that put the POI through the center of the front sight. I'd rather have either a 6 o'clock like I setup, or have the POI be right at the center tip of the front sight.

[ignantmike]

When I put new sights on my G34 it printed about two inches high if I recall. I quickly got used to, and liked the fact, that the rounds were impacting up in my field of view.

I do the same thing. I setup my G34 and 35 so that I can put the front sight at the bottom of the plate on the plate rack at 15 yds and hit center. For a 7yd "upper A/B" shot I'm aiming just a little below the bottom perf of the upper A zone to hit the A. I find this way I can more easily look past the sights to see my hits if I need/want to. I'm at the point where I can mostly call my shots, but I also want a visual confirmation of the hits if I don't call As. Probably a little slower, but that's where I'm at.

I absolutly hate factory sights with white dots that put the POI through the center of the front sight. I'd rather have either a 6 o'clock like I setup, or have the POI be right at the center tip of the front sight.

what sights do you have on your g34

[MustangGreg66]

When I put new sights on my G34 it printed about two inches high if I recall. I quickly got used to, and liked the fact, that the rounds were impacting up in my field of view.

I do the same thing. I setup my G34 and 35 so that I can put the front sight at the bottom of the plate on the plate rack at 15 yds and hit center. For a 7yd "upper A/B" shot I'm aiming just a little below the bottom perf of the upper A zone to hit the A. I find this way I can more easily look past the sights to see my hits if I need/want to. I'm at the point where I can mostly call my shots, but I also want a visual confirmation of the hits if I don't call As. Probably a little slower, but that's where I'm at.

I absolutly hate factory sights with white dots that put the POI through the center of the front sight. I'd rather have either a 6 o'clock like I setup, or have the POI be right at the center tip of the front sight.

what sights do you have on your g34

I swapped over a set of Dawson ajustables with a .100 FO front I had one my G35. I'm debating on whether to get another set or try to match a front with a set of Warren/Sevigney's I have.

[Steve L]

As mentioned before I feel the 6 O'clock hold is too much to think about while shooting on the clock as well as head shot only targets. I also notice that some people use the 6 o'clock hold because they want too see there bullet impact rather than just call their shots.

[ck1]

I lean more towards where I think Brian is talking about than the classic meaning many think of when they hear "6 o'clock hold", maybe sort of an in-between I guess...

Maybe call it a "modern 6 o'clock" or a sort of hybrid hold as I prefer all my guns to hit the same as my 9mm Glocks do with Warren/Sevigny comp sights (black serrated fronts, no FO's for me): POI is exactly at the the top of the front blade at 7 yards and POI moves slightly up from there as distance increases to where to hit a 6" plate at 25 yards, I simply put the plate on top of the front blade and it'll drop every time with a center hit (so maybe 3" - 4" above the tip of the front blade @ 25 yards). What I like about it is that a 6" target zone at 25 yards will appear small enough to where the front blade will completely cover it up and mean one has to guess, so the POI being a little high allows me to see what I'm trying to hit and really aim rather than just winging it. It's not something I have to think about, I put the tip of the blade where I want the bullet to go and that's about it, the "6 o'clock-ness" or whatever takes care of itself and seems to just happen naturally as distances increase without me having to consciously think about it as it's instinctual to look at the target then transition focus to the blade.

I can't stand a "hold over" sight picture anymore, and now find it really sloppy and imprecise, that said, if I were still shooting FO's I might feel differently as it seems most guys tend to "drive the dot" only using the top of the blade for longer shots.

Edited October 29, 2011 by ck1

[Rob P.]

Wait, wait...

What's a revolver?

It's that spinning door on some commercial high-rise office buildings. I dunno why it was brought up in this post though.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Rob P.

[Sarge]

When I put new sights on my G34 it printed about two inches high if I recall. I quickly got used to, and liked the fact, that the rounds were impacting up in my field of view.

I do the same thing. I setup my G34 and 35 so that I can put the front sight at the bottom of the plate on the plate rack at 15 yds and hit center. For a 7yd "upper A/B" shot I'm aiming just a little below the bottom perf of the upper A zone to hit the A. I find this way I can more easily look past the sights to see my hits if I need/want to. I'm at the point where I can mostly call my shots, but I also want a visual confirmation of the hits if I don't call As. Probably a little slower, but that's where I'm at.

I absolutly hate factory sights with white dots that put the POI through the center of the front sight. I'd rather have either a 6 o'clock like I setup, or have the POI be right at the center tip of the front sight.

what sights do you have on your g34

I swapped over a set of Dawson ajustables with a .100 FO front I had one my G35. I'm debating on whether to get another set or try to match a front with a set of Warren/Sevigney's I have.

Sevigney Competition with .215 tall FO front.

[LazyO]

Do any of you know how the xdm comes sight in from the factory? I've been shooting mine at six inch steel plates mostly from 15 yards and find that the 6 o'clock hold is what I'm having to do. Also, do you recommend that I keep it this way or change it? My duty gun is set up poa/poi. Thanks

[Steve L]

Do any of you know how the xdm comes sight in from the factory? I've been shooting mine at six inch steel plates mostly from 15 yards and find that the 6 o'clock hold is what I'm having to do. Also, do you recommend that I keep it this way or change it? My duty gun is set up poa/poi. Thanks

If it is anything like a Glock they have POI the white dot on the front sight rather than the top of the blade. I want all my guns to shoot POA/POI. Especially if your duty gun shoots that way, there is no reason to have to think about which gun points where.