The perfect HM rifle?

[barrysuperhawk]

Ok, since the 3 gun season is winding down, and there are only a couple of big ones left this year, neither of which I can go to, it's time to think about next years rifle. Some of you who know me know I am all about Heavy Metal / He-Man class, and I have had my moments where I have actually done well, however, with my FAL, hits past 2-300 yards are largely luck, not mechanical accuracy. The FAL is like an AK it always goes bang no matter wheather I haven't cleaned it in years or not..

This year, I tried something different, with a DPMS AP4 in .308 and then a Bushmaster .308 ORC, with less than stellar results. Some of my problems were self induced [my ill-advised decision to jump on the 1x optic bandwagon stands out] but another component to my issues was that neither of my "replacements" were any better suited to long range shooting than my FAL. Both guns have 16" barrels and flashiders rather than any type of comp. I am given to understand 16 is a tad to short for optimum performange, that 18" or longer would be better, ballistically, but I think 20" would be too much..

The DPMS is a workable gun, but it has a horrible trigger and a short sight radius. I also dislike the FF tube on it. The Busmaster has a fairly good trigger, but I have struggled with Optics, first trying a 4MOA Vortex Strikefire [great optic, until you realize what a 4 minute dot subtends to at 4-500 yards vs the size of the targets]. The second try was an Eotech XPS which went better, but wasn't any easier past 200 than the Vortex, since the 1 moa dot tends to bloom when you turn it up enough to see it in daylight so you lose the pinpoint 1moa..] Sooo, I am not even sure I want to continue with the 1x optics because they haven't worked out so well for me so far.

Now, I have been kicking around the build/buy/trade options but I am kindof on the fence as to my direction. The easiest thing might be to clamp a set of sights on the Bushmaster and give it a try, but then, taking the easy route so far has resulted in a year's worth of terrible performances, so I am open to suggestions.

So, heavy metal guys, post up pictures, specs and opinions about what works and what does not. Please be specific, what you use, what your dream gun would be, what works, what does not, whatever, let me know.

Edited October 10, 2011 by barrysuperhawk

[Bryan 45]

Joe Satterfield put a woopin' on me at Ozark w/ his 16" SCAR-H using the stock sight radius. Just the barrel of my M1A is longer than his sight radius, but he once again reminds us it's the indian, not the arrow. What you have can be made to work. Just sticking a FSB right behind the muzzle and replacing the flash hider w/ a comp would turn either rifle into good iron guns.

But, if you're looking for an excuse to get another rifle.... a $1K DPMS w/ the 24" stainless heavy barrel can be cut and turned down by Benny Hill into a very nice HM rifle. I still prefer my M1A, but every time I fire a group and have a flyer I can't help but wonder if it's me or a bedding issue. M1As are great rifles, but there is a lot more involved w/ them shooting well than the AR pattern.

[kurtm]

If the "flyer" is the bolt hold open shot, it is your bedding, if not....well.....you know!

[P.E. Kelley]

If the "flyer" is the bolt hold open shot, it is your bedding, if not....well.....you know!

Damn dude, another pearl of M14 /M1A wisdom! Thanks Kurt!

And Barry...it is well documented that the best rifle for HM Iron is the M1A!

Don't fight it just go get one!

Patrick

[DyNo!]

Don't fight it just go get one!

Patrick

+1

Just go get one anyway!

I don't even shoot HM and I have an M1A. If I had to get rid of all my guns, it would be the last one I held onto.

[barrysuperhawk]

Joe Satterfield put a woopin' on me at Ozark w/ his 16" SCAR-H using the stock sight radius. Just the barrel of my M1A is longer than his sight radius, but he once again reminds us it's the indian, not the arrow. What you have can be made to work. Just sticking a FSB right behind the muzzle and replacing the flash hider w/ a comp would turn either rifle into good iron guns.

But, if you're looking for an excuse to get another rifle.... a $1K DPMS w/ the 24" stainless heavy barrel can be cut and turned down by Benny Hill into a very nice HM rifle. I still prefer my M1A, but every time I fire a group and have a flyer I can't help but wonder if it's me or a bedding issue. M1As are great rifles, but there is a lot more involved w/ them shooting well than the AR pattern.

I agree it is the indian, not the arrow, after all I have done very well over the years with a FAL, after all. M1A's are beautiful rifles, but I never fell in love with them. Part of my success with the FAL is familiarity, I have shot more rounds out of my FAL than I have out of all of my AR pattern rifles put togeather, and that counts for a lot. I have even considered either throwing a bunch of cash at my current FAL or starting over with a new DSA, but then I realize I am in peril of becoming "that guy", the Elevator operator, the wooden wheel maker, the steam engine mechanic.

And Barry...it is well documented that the best rifle for HM Iron is the M1A!

Don't fight it just go get one!

Patrick

+1

Just go get one anyway!

I don't even shoot HM and I have an M1A. If I had to get rid of all my guns, it would be the last one I held onto.

The M1A is a beautiful rifle, but my personal tastes tend to run closer to the Socom [but without that funky rail crap] but then I am back to a shorter sight radius and an unfamiliar platform.

It seems ALOT of the HM guys are running AR pattern .308's, and doing better with them than I do with my experienced FAL, so unless I am willing to admit I am no good at this game, there seemes to be improvement available in the hardware department. I can hold my own with my singlestack and my 590 against most anyone, typically where my scores go to hell is my rifle. But when I shoot high-power, I am consistantly 450+ and I earned my rifleman patch with everything I brought, so I know I can shoot a rifle.

So, this brings me back to an AR pattern rifle that is more well thought out than my current abortive attempts..

Edited October 10, 2011 by barrysuperhawk

[DyNo!]

If you need some inspiration, here's a picture of Rob Romero's HM rifle:

I run the same sighting arrangement but with a Prismatic on top and everything else folded down (So I could finish a match if my primary optic crapped out/lost zero).

If I shot real limited or HM, that's the way I'd do it. (MATECH + TROY BUIS)

Edited October 10, 2011 by DyNo!

[P.E. Kelley]

I tried Barry...but your mind is made up...the winning-est rifle in the history of HM Iron is not for you!

You're a FAL guy??? Is yours a DSA with a "Hampton" lower? The one with the real deal A2 rear sight?

Is it a DSA "match" rifle???

Is is a solid 2MOA rifle?

If not keep working on that wooden wheel

Good luck.

Patrick

[bagdrag]

I tried Barry...but your mind is made up...the winning-est rifle in the history of HM Iron is not for you!

You're a FAL guy??? Is yours a DSA with a "Hampton" lower? The one with the real deal A2 rear sight?

Is it a DSA "match" rifle???

Is is a solid 2MOA rifle?

If not keep working on that wooden wheel

Good luck.

Patrick

Is a DSA 'Match' FAL that much better than a non-Match?

[barrysuperhawk]

I tried Barry...but your mind is made up...the winning-est rifle in the history of HM Iron is not for you!

You're a FAL guy??? Is yours a DSA with a "Hampton" lower? The one with the real deal A2 rear sight?

Is it a DSA "match" rifle???

Is is a solid 2MOA rifle?

If not keep working on that wooden wheel

Good luck.

Patrick

If my mind was made up, I wouldn't have asked the question. Viscerally I love my FAL, and it is the rifle I would keep if I had only one. I also agree that M1A's can be supremely accurate, especially shooting high power, but I can't fail to notice that M1A's are about as popular in HM as FAL's. My only experince with a M1A was a 3 rifle comparison between a HK a M1A and a FAL and they shot hardest to softest in that order. I could get behind a Socom 16 if it was competitive, but I have never seen anyone actually using one at a match.

Oh, and my FAL is ugly, not even a DSA, it's a Century build on a Hesse Reciever that has had the bulk of it's small parts replaced. I have had it for a while and I am afraid to drop a gauge in it because I have shot it ALOT. One of my quandries is do I spend the $$ on rebarreling it and take the chance on it not working or put the $$ toward a more productive project...

Edited October 10, 2011 by barrysuperhawk

[barrysuperhawk]

If you need some inspiration, here's a picture of Rob Romero's HM rifle:

The *is* inspiring. Rob runs a Noveske which means AR10 uppers and Armalite mags, though, right? Both of my guns are DPMS pattern and take Pmags, and I have a ton of them, so unless Mr Kelly talks me into a M1A...

As a side note, I bought a Bushmaster .308 when they first came out [the FAL mag version] and I tried really hard to like it, but in the end I spent as much time fumbling with it as shooting it, so I traded it. I think RRA might have improved the design a tad, but I have heard they are still finekey with mags. the LAST thing I want is to go with a rifle that I have to work out jams...

[RiggerJJ]

JP LRP-07 with FIXED iron sights, A2 rear (DPMS) and Lyman globe out front with the reticle of your choice; I like the crosshairs with a small circle in the middle...See the JP website for the front sight assembly, its quite kewl. Also see the JP website for pix of the rifle, (drool!)

For a dot/scope, either a Aimpoint M4S (2moa) or a Pris with DCD (3moa)...

I've tried em all, and am using the fixed irons listed above...

jj

oh yea, 16inch barrel...

seemed to work for me ok at Ozark!

Edited October 10, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[Jaxshooter]

My vote goes to the M1A in a JAE stock to eliminate any bedding problems.

[DyNo!]

My vote goes to the M1A in a JAE stock to eliminate any bedding problems.

They look cool but I've never played with one.

Is that a stock for our game as far as weight goes?

[P.E. Kelley]

Everything JJ said but I would go 18"

Patrick

[Jaxshooter]

The stock I have is a little on the heavy side because it has all of the adjustable features on it, comb height etc. If you buy the plain model it saves weight by appx a pound. I like the weight because it really helps absorbe the recoil and the sights are right there for the next shot.

[Bryan 45]

My vote goes to the M1A in a JAE stock to eliminate any bedding problems.

I use a M1A non-bedded to a 40+ year old USGI surplus fiberglass stock. I think I paid $40 for the stock. I'll take that and $500 worth of practice (7.62x51 ammo) over a JAE stock. There are a lot of fancy things on the market for the M1A, but few are needed.

JJ's rifle is very nice. Jomar Villamor also shoots a JP 308 that is set up great. No doubt JP makes the nicest rifle, but they are $3K.

[P.E. Kelley]

My vote goes to the M1A in a JAE stock to eliminate any bedding problems.

I use a M1A non-bedded to a 40+ year old USGI surplus fiberglass stock. I think I paid $40 for the stock. I'll take that and $500 worth of practice (7.62x51 ammo) over a JAE stock. There are a lot of fancy things on the market for the M1A, but few are needed.

JJ's rifle is very nice. Jomar Villamor also shoots a JP 308 that is set up great. No doubt JP makes the nicest rifle, but they are $3K.

Bryan..we have said enough about the M1A. Let's just keep this superb rifle to ourselves

Patrick

[DyNo!]

I'll take that and $500 worth of practice (7.62x51 ammo) over a JAE stock.

That's exactly why I don't have one yet.

[HRider]

I have an M1A and an Armalite AR10. The M1A is a GI parts gun on a Springfield Receiver. My AR10 is a 20" AR10A2 fixed carry handle with a 15.5" JP free float tube, SJC comp and the front sight right behind the comp. It is more accurate than MY M1A (M1A shoots acceptable groups for 3gun though), shoots softer (comp makes a difference, M1A still has GI flash hider), weighs the same, is 2" shorter overall, has 1/2" shorter sight radius, and equally reliable. I can reload the AR10 faster and if I put equal ammounts of ammo through the two rifles, the M1A gets hotter. I really like both rifles and wouldn't hesitate to shoot the M1A if I had too (AR broke or something), but I have had more time behind the AR and don't yet have a thin front sight on the M1A. I have never thought of a 20" AR as being too long.

Thank you Kurt for the added piece of M14 knowledge

Hurley

[Mike P]

I tried Barry...but your mind is made up...the winning-est rifle in the history of HM Iron is not for you!

You're a FAL guy??? Is yours a DSA with a "Hampton" lower? The one with the real deal A2 rear sight?

Is it a DSA "match" rifle???

Is is a solid 2MOA rifle?

If not keep working on that wooden wheel

Good luck.

Patrick

If my mind was made up, I wouldn't have asked the question. Viscerally I love my FAL, and it is the rifle I would keep if I had only one. I also agree that M1A's can be supremely accurate, especially shooting high power, but I can't fail to notice that M1A's are about as popular in HM as FAL's. My only experince with a M1A was a 3 rifle comparison between a HK a M1A and a FAL and they shot hardest to softest in that order. I could get behind a Socom 16 if it was competitive, but I have never seen anyone actually using one at a match.

Oh, and my FAL is ugly, not even a DSA, it's a Century build on a Hesse Reciever that has had the bulk of it's small parts replaced. I have had it for a while and I am afraid to drop a gauge in it because I have shot it ALOT. One of my quandries is do I spend the $$ on rebarreling it and take the chance on it not working or put the $$ toward a more productive project...

The " Hampton" lower is a large improvement over the standard FAL sights, DSA also has or had another lower with a picatinny section to add whatever you wanted as a sight. Mine has the "Hampton", a DSA 16 inch barrel and a custom brake made by a local smith, and it does shoot 2 minutes consistently. None of the scope mounting options I've tried work well with the FAL. Also, I have and have used the DSA FF tube and it proved too large and heavy for my purposes.

That said, I'm in the process of putting together a 16" AR for HM because it is more accurate, and more versatile than any of the other options.

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

IF I was to get an M1A, I would likely get the Scout. The standard M1A's barrell is a bit to long for my taste. The Socom, as cool as it looks, is not practical for me as I'm more likely to shoot 3-gun rather than CQB with it. The Scout is the good median with an 18" barrel.

But that's just me, and you know I shoot a JP Rifle.

If you want to try work with what you got already, I recommend a Lyman Globe front sight like JJ and I have. Mine has the thin post insert which I allows me to still see the distant targets.

But then again, that's just me, and I got my @ss handed to me at Ozark's this year.

[barrysuperhawk]

The " Hampton" lower is a large improvement over the standard FAL sights, DSA also has or had another lower with a picatinny section to add whatever you wanted as a sight. Mine has the "Hampton", a DSA 16 inch barrel and a custom brake made by a local smith, and it does shoot 2 minutes consistently. None of the scope mounting options I've tried work well with the FAL. Also, I have and have used the DSA FF tube and it proved too large and heavy for my purposes.

That said, I'm in the process of putting together a 16" AR for HM because it is more accurate, and more versatile than any of the other options.

Slightly off topic, but the best luck I have had with optic mounting on a FAL has been with a Tapco mount with the internal plates epoxied in and the screws replaced with socket head RC bolts. The scope is then mounted so low that I had to grind down the mount to get it to fit, but it's barely above the sight plane. that lets me get down with a proper cheek weld...

IF I was to get an M1A, I would likely get the Scout. The standard M1A's barrell is a bit to long for my taste. The Socom, as cool as it looks, is not practical for me as I'm more likely to shoot 3-gun rather than CQB with it. The Scout is the good median with an 18" barrel.

But that's just me, and you know I shoot a JP Rifle.

If you want to try work with what you got already, I recommend a Lyman Globe front sight like JJ and I have. Mine has the thin post insert which I allows me to still see the distant targets.

But then again, that's just me, and I got my @ss handed to me at Ozark's this year.

The main reason I looked at the scout was that in 3gun you are quire often in and out of ports, barrels and going around walls, and with the short barrel and the short comp/FH it seemed pretty handy. But then I run my FAL with no muzzle device at all, so I essentially have a carbine already.

You guys are killing me, here I thought I was past wanting a M1A... Dangit.

[DocMedic]

At RM3G you shot the FNAR, I'm guessing it didn't turn out as well as you hope, what are your thoughts behind it as a HM rifle?

My vote goes to the M1A in a JAE stock to eliminate any bedding problems.

I use a M1A non-bedded to a 40+ year old USGI surplus fiberglass stock. I think I paid $40 for the stock. I'll take that and $500 worth of practice (7.62x51 ammo) over a JAE stock. There are a lot of fancy things on the market for the M1A, but few are needed.

JJ's rifle is very nice. Jomar Villamor also shoots a JP 308 that is set up great. No doubt JP makes the nicest rifle, but they are $3K.

Bryan..we have said enough about the M1A. Let's just keep this superb rifle to ourselves

Patrick

[barrysuperhawk]

You guys are killing me, here I thought I was past wanting a M1A... Dangit.

So, y'all are going to laugh at me, guess what is about to follow me home after the appropriate waiting period....

I probably will still try to copy what Rob and Villamor use, because I am still intellectually convinced the AR platform has the most competitive potential, but in the meantime I am going to give the M1A a go... Now I have to go look for mags and a skinnier front sight. Can I just bolt on a NM skinny post and call it good? Geebus, y'all are a bad influence, I haven't even picked the rifle up and I am already thinking of ways to molest it...