To Coach or not to Coach that is the question?

[Jesse Tischauser]

I recently posted a video in another thread here on this forum. The video contained footage from one of the shooters in my squad shooting an entire match. There were a few instances where myself, the camera man and/or the rest of the squad and even the RO helped the shooter by telling the shooter that he left a plate. This coaching caused quite a stir with other forum members. I see it happen very often in 3 gun. From the missed plate that is hard to see in the woods to the picking up of a magazine and handing it to a shooter that didn't realize he dropped it running full speed down the trail to the calling the dope on someones long range rifle shots when the shooter isn't connecting to someone bringing you an entire pistol and magazines on 3 Gun Nation when you forget your pistol on a stage. What is your take on the topic of helping another shooter out on the clock?

I personally don't have a problem with it. When I shoot a match I typically shoot with 3 or 4 shooting buddies and then I try to surround myself with shooters that I have never shot with before so I can make new friends within the shooting community. I also consider that group of guys and girls that I am shooting with on my squad to be my team for the weekend. I am going to do everything I can to help them out. From reseting extra targets when they need to fix a broken gun to calling out their misses on some tough pistol steel even if that person is battling with me for the top spot in the division. I want everyone at the match and especially those in my squad to have the best match and most fun they can have.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I am 100% totally against ANY type of coaching on the clock - don't care if the "coach" is an RO or another shooter. I didn't initially comment on the video Jesse posted, but since he asked the question - I was honestly very disappointed to see so much active coaching. I can only assume this was happening throughout the entire squad.

There were several opportunities when my squad could have really helped each other out (missed targets, etc), but we were all under the impression that coaching was against the rules. On stage 7, one of our guys missed a target and another squad member made a comment about the missed target (which the shooter didn't hear) - the RO held up his finger and shook his head "no". That reinforced my belief that coaching was verboten.

The biggest problem with coaching is that, despite the best intentions, it's impossible to do it consistently. This lack of consistency leads to inconsistency in the match and ultimately - the final results.

A big part of the shooting game is mental preparation and "imprinting" the stage and the actions required to successfully complete the stage. After the buzzer sounds, it should be just the shooter and the course of fire. I think we'd have a much fairer match if everyone would just STFU and let the shooter either succeed or fail on his/her own merit.

[bbbean]

I don't have a problem with coaching a beginner at a local match, but by the time you've shot two or three matches, I think coaching needs to consist of suggestions before the buzzer and analysis after ULSC.

[pjb45]

Tis whether is nobler to grow the sport or suffer the slings and arrows of diminishing attendance. That is question?

I find coaching new or less experienced shooters increases their success. The more they feel successful, the more likely they are to keep attending matches.

In our area, getting repeat attendance is a goal. To achieve that, the more experienced shooters often give encouragement, advice and sometimes coaching. To me this is ok. These are local club matches. These folks are never in the running for the top scores/placement.

The more experience shooters rarely get coaching, sometimes some good natured ribbing, but almost always encouragement.

Edited September 13, 2011 by pjb45

[Kevin Holman]

I am 100% totally against ANY type of coaching on the clock - don't care if the "coach" is an RO or another shooter. I didn't initially comment on the video Jesse posted, but since he asked the question - I was honestly very disappointed to see so much active coaching. I can only assume this was happening throughout the entire squad.

There were several opportunities when my squad could have really helped each other out (missed targets, etc), but we were all under the impression that coaching was against the rules. On stage 7, one of our guys missed a target and another squad member made a comment about the missed target (which the shooter didn't hear) - the RO held up his finger and shook his head "no". That reinforced my belief that coaching was verboten.

The biggest problem with coaching is that, despite the best intentions, it's impossible to do it consistently. This lack of consistency leads to inconsistency in the match and ultimately - the final results.

A big part of the shooting game is mental preparation and "imprinting" the stage and the actions required to successfully complete the stage. After the buzzer sounds, it should be just the shooter and the course of fire. I think we'd have a much fairer match if everyone would just STFU and let the shooter either succeed or fail on his/her own merit.

This is EXACTLY how I feel.

While I didnt see the need for the pissing match about it in the othe thread... because it isnt a big deal.... I feel that 3gun is an individual competition, and once the buzzer goes off EVERYONE should stay out of it... including the RO's and especially teammates.

This includes comments like "low" or "hey you missed a plate on the left" or "you dropped a mag!".... 100% the shooter, on their own. Before the buzzer, let's all help each other all we can.

[The Antichrome]

It doesnt really matter how we feel about it.

Coaching and assistance are covered in the rulebook:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor

during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance)

may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

I assume it's different in non-USPSA or 'outlaw' matches.

[Kevin Holman]

It doesnt really matter how we feel about it.

Coaching and assistance are covered in the rulebook:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor

during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance)

may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

I assume it's different in non-USPSA or 'outlaw' matches.

Which is what's being discussed. Most 3gun matches are Outlaw/IMGA/Modified IMGA.

[jar]

I like the USPSA rule on coaching and would use it in any rules I wrote. It allows coaching of new shooters at local matches if they want it. I think coaching on the clock has no place at matches where something is on the line. A big part of the game is stage planning and executing your plan.

[Stlhead]

Some call it coaching, if it is done well it is better described as active R.O.ing. If the match rules allow it (some do) it can be done well, and fairly, it just takes an R.O. Who is willing and able to use the same phrases and directions at the same or similar times when the situation requires them. If the R.O. Reminds every shooter to get the slugs out of his gun and get the shot in there is no advantage. A long as the R.O. Does his or her level best to make sure that the abandoned guns are clear before the shooter goes forward is that not better than watching a competitor abandon a gun he thinks is clear (that the R.O. Notices is not) and then stop him for the DQ, or better to try and get the gun cleared before the safety violation occurs? There are very few people who make their living at our sport, and they are not the ones getting any benefit from the so called coaching. The vast majority of shooters are out to have a good time, and sometimes a little assistance can go a long way to helping a shooter have a good stage.

The idea that any 3gun stage will be absolutely fair and equatable for every competitor is a fairy tale. The sun moves changing the light, the wind blows, the temperature changes, the props move, the steel changes color, sometimes it rains and makes mud. Our sport is not like basketball, it is not played in a sterile controlled indoor environment. We should embrace the somewhat random nature of the way the stages present themselves and just enjoy the game. Sometimes you get a stage when it is in top shape, sometimes you get one that is less than ideal, have fun, do your best, and thank the R.O.s when your squad is finished even if you think they did a shitty job. If you think that you can do a better job running a stage then volunteer. At many of the matches at I attend I see many of the same faces R.O.ing, some of those fellows could use a break. I will now wait patiently to be belittled for my fun first attitude.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't have a problem with coaching a beginner at a local match, but by the time you've shot two or three matches, I think coaching needs to consist of suggestions before the buzzer and analysis after ULSC.

I agree. New shooters who ask for the coaching from the RO is fine at local matches. At big matches no and no for experienced shooters.

Pat

[Religious Shooter]

As long as it is widely known that you can or can't, it's all good.

If a match allows coaching and you don't like it... don't attend.

If a match doesn't allow coaching and you don't like it... don't attend.

I think the problem arises when not everybody (or at least the great majority) doesn't know that you can or can't.

[DyNo!]

I completely support coaching new shooters at local level matches.

On the subject of major multigun matches, I'm split on this one.

I believe bad stage design plays a big part in it.

The stage should have enough clarity for most experienced shooters to run it without assistance.

I've shot multigun stages so overly complicated that a majority of the shooters would have penalties without RO coaching. For example, hidden targets and memory stages involving target hunting and targets with poor visibility fall into this category.

On the other hand at a recent match - I witnessed unwanted coaching cause shooters to accumulate time on the clock due to confusion.

In the case of squad mates coaching squad mates - if the stages have clarity, your squad-mates coaching you will slow a good run down and make it less competitive.

Also is the consideration of safety. If I'm shooting any sort of match and I hear loud yelling from the RO or spectators (other than called hits), I'd have reason to believe that I need to unload and show clear since something has gone wrong (there is a man downrange, unsafe conditions, etc).

Edited September 13, 2011 by DyNo!

[AlamoShooter]

its more likely to hurt a good shooters score than help it. If its not worked out before the event starts.

The stages are problems to be solved, if the rules allow it and a pair or group come up with a better way to score well using coaching, it should be celebrated as smart.

I have shot a game that a coach is allowed STC its a 3 person team event, If the coaches job is not planed out and practiced = it normally fails to help the team.

I can tell you that Coaching is very hard to do

I don't have a problem with it so long as its in or out of the rules before the match begins.

If I am shooting a stage and an unasked "Coach" jumps in to help me, my hope is that it does not distract me too much.

If I am not looking at the person talking to me I don't understand some or most of the words spoken.

All that said I will never be happy with a race that can be won by taking one step back-wards of the finish line and thin the next step forward to cross the finish line first.

[timawa]

I think if you are coaching a begginer is totally fine. It's kind of like an orientation for a newbie to understand what is 3 gun all about. Like others said, it will make the new shooter feel welcomed by the masters of 3 gun shooting. I've been only into 3 matches since a got addicted to 3gun at a local club and I feel like I've been part of the club for a very long time. It also teaching the newcomer "safety" during the match. Coaching before the match is called tips (words from the master) everyone does that.

But, if you are coaching somebody that's been a regular, whether a friend or another local shooter and during his run I think it's called "cheating".

[Jesse Tischauser]

I completely support coaching new shooters at local level matches.

On the subject of major multigun matches, I'm split on this one.

I believe bad stage design plays a big part in it.

The stage should have enough clarity for most experienced shooters to run it without assistance.

I've shot multigun stages so overly complicated that a majority of the shooters would have penalties without RO coaching. For example, hidden targets and memory stages involving target hunting and targets with poor visibility fall into this category.

On the other hand at a recent match - I witnessed unwanted coaching cause shooters to accumulate time on the clock due to confusion.

In the case of squad mates coaching squad mates - if the stages have clarity, your squad-mates coaching you will slow a good run down and make it less competitive.

Also is the consideration of safety. If I'm shooting any sort of match and I hear loud yelling from the RO or spectators (other than called hits), I'd have reason to believe that I need to unload and show clear since something has gone wrong (there is a man downrange, unsafe conditions, etc).

This is spot on Cameron!!! You can see a shooter that has disconnected from his game plan due to invisible targets or poor stage design. They will be cruising along and all of a sudden their head comes off the gun, the mouth drops open, their head starts darting back and forth while the look aimlessly into the abyss of hiden targets in the shadows. Same thing goes for long range shooting. It's obvious when a shooter loses his zero.

I also agree with Jamie or whoever it was in that coaching often distracts or confuses the shooter if it takes them out of the zone and off if their game plan having to come back for a target.

Heck at this years Midwest 3 gun we were encouraged to coach on a couple if stages due to match conditions and stage design.

I love natural terrain matches but If the targets arent clearly visible they are not fun or fair which is when I see and feel coaching is almost a necessity.

[mwc]

Coaching anyone at a major match is wrong. I ran stage ten at the O3GC and was surprised at how many team mates were yelling at me to call hits for the person shooting a pistol or would bring me the pistol magazine that was dropped while the shooter was running, asking me to return it. I refused not because it was or wasn't in the rules for the match, but because I hadn't done it for anyone else. Some folks didn't like that, but I can assure you that everyone on that stage was treated the same. Everything has to be done the same way for every shooter to make it fair.

[Tyler Payne]

"...You can see a shooter that has disconnected from his game plan due to invisible targets or poor stage design..."

How does poor stage design have anything to do with the shooter straying from his plan? Everyone gets a chance to walk through the stage at least once and if they don't have a solid plan formulated or if they forget it half-way through, that is 100% on the shooter.

In regards to coaching...I'm all for it if the rules allow.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Tyler Payne

[Nuke8401]

Choice "A" 3 GUN is a real competition sport = no coaching = keep score because it means something.

Choice "B" 3 GUN is not a real competition sport = coaching is OK = don't keep score because it means nothing.

I think it is a real competition sport.

While it "feels good" to coach; trial by fire/failure is a much more effective teaching method than coaching. Think about the things/events that taught you the most, were they coaching or were they instances of failure that drove you to vow to never make the same mistake again?

Man would I POed if I knew I was beaten by a coached shooter.

Is there any other individual sport that allows "coaching"/directing individual competitors in this manner during the competition?

David E.

[Bryan 45]

Like many of you, I have volunteered as a RO at several major matches. The match director of one match tells the ROs at the pre-match meeting "give the shooter just enough rope to let them hang their self." I personally like this approach. Obviously this becomes an issue of how much is just enough, but when a stage has 21 shotgun targets, 14 pistol targets, and 8 rifles targets that must be engaged from no less than 2 positions I think it is reasonable for an RO to assist with locating targets- but only after giving the shooter an opportunity to find the targets (hence "giving them just enough rope). Obviously how much rope the shooter gets will not remain consistent from one stage to the next, but with volunteer ROs of various levels of experience it's unavoidable. The best advise I've received from Range Masters is "be consistent." As an RO, if I screw up a call w/ the 1st shooter of the match, I better make that same call through the last shooter. (excluding safety issues)

I also feel that the RO should be the only person to have contact w/ the shooter during the COF. When a squad's scores are combined it will be a team event, but until then I feel the shooter and the RO should be the only two people interacting, unless of course the rules state otherwise. If a shooter unexpectedly hears someone other than the RO shouting direction, there are too many ugly things that can happen.

*I reserve the right to cut/copy/paste/edit/modify this post as additional thoughts enter my head.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Bryan 45

[Jesse Tischauser]

"...You can see a shooter that has disconnected from his game plan due to invisible targets or poor stage design..."

How does poor stage design have anything to do with the shooter straying from his plan? Everyone gets a chance to walk through the stage at least once and if they don't have a solid plan formulated or if they forget it half-way through, that is 100% on the shooter.

In regards to coaching...I'm all for it if the rules allow.

What meant there Tyler was for instance when I shot that stage with a bunch of shotgun and pistol plates with rifle at the end. The sun went down and a big black cloud came over and it started sprinkling. The lighting conditions changes drastically and I now had water on my glasses that no one else had. I fortunately didn't have any issues finding targets, I had issues hitting them. That's the beauty and also beast of these fun natural terrain matches. Lighting changes drastically from the morning to the evening. Heck it was foggy as heck Subday morning.

As much as it pains me to say it I almost think the big all encompassing USPSA rule book has it right for this topic.

[Nuke8401]

As much as it pains me to say it I almost think the big all encompassing USPSA rule book has it right for this topic.

Amen!!!!

David E.

[caz41]

I think the biggest thing that needs to happen is for the MD to put something in the rules one way or the other on it and we wouldn't have this discussion.

My personal observation on the matter would be the inconsistent nature of it. If it is afforded to everyone or to none then it is the same across the board. What I did personally see at the most current match that I attended (not to single out that match, but because that is what happened there) on one stage involving rifle targets and a tough sun rising behind them, when one of my squad mates finished shooting the RO gave the unload and show clear if finished command. Once done and getting up to his score sheet he was told that he had not engaged one of the rifle targets.

A few shooters later when getting to and hitting the final rifle target, the RO told the shooter that he had not engaged one of the targets and the shooter then went back and shot it. Had I been the guy who wasn't told by the RO that I didn't shoot one and then see him tell someone else later I would have been upset.

My personal opinion on the question that was presented by the OP would be that the RO, and RO only can give some direction to hitting or finding the target only after the shooter has given it his best opportunity at taking it on his own. Some may argue that this will be an inconsistent judgement call by the RO but that is the grey area the comes with ROing. We have all seen matches where RO's make judgement calls that could go either way. Hell at this last match on stage 1 alone I saw no less than 10 shooters that easily could have been DQ'd when pulling their rifle out of the barrel at a full sprint when then barrel catches. Were they at the 179 degree mark or the 181 degree mark I couldn't tell you and I don't think anyone could have honestly know either.

[J-Ho]

I'm definitely in the no coaching camp. For those who know what they are doing anyway. At a local match, with new shooters, I don't see it as a problem. Are there sideline coaches in other sports,? heck yes there are. Even in individual competitions like gymnastics, the coach will give instruction.

Now at big matches, different story. If my brain falls apart, it's my fault and my responsibility to fix it or suffer a crappy score.

[AlamoShooter]

Full-Auto and I worked the timer at on one stage at an event with four rifle targets that were spread not so far apart and in the open. should be easy but dust could cloud the targets if the shooter missed more than once = most shooters missed more than once.

in every stage brief we would say "If you ask us we will respond & tell you what target must be hit"

most every shooter that got confused asked for and received help.

I would be nice to see it in the rule book for the events what the parameter of coaching is.

As in 'the shooter must assign a coach before he starts the stage' The Ro will not help until he thinks the shooter is confused or the shooter asks for help. As in "What one did I miss?"

Did I hit them all?

Take it though , I do not like many ROs hear that great, so the response may not be fast to verbalize.

Believe it or not my mouth can be slow and inaccurate

[SHELLFISH17]

I like the idea of coaching jr's and newby's but not anyone else.

Having a plan and executing it is 70% mental and 30% physical, If you have a team on your side with the mental part you will shoot better but its not just all you, its you and your team so I see it as an unfair advantage to someone not getting coached through the course of fire.

If the rules allow it then its no big deal but If they say no coaching then it is cheating...plain and simple.

Sheldon Blackwell