Outsydlooknin75 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Cam, I'm not opposed to one prize table but how do you break up the divisions? Does a guy who shoots number 1 in irons go after number 1 TO, open, HM? Or do you do a random draw out of a hat after the match to see what order divisions go to the table? Or do you go to prize table in order of most participants? If in order of most participants that would prob be TO,open,HK,TI. As an irons shooter I wouldn't mind random draw as far as what order went to the table. I think a specific prize of a gun set up for another division for each divisions winner and a specific prize for match overall winner. Possibly an open shooter gets a HM gun, the HM winner gets an open gun, TO shooter gets a cool irons gun, and the TI winner gets a cool optic and mount. That way people could get a start to another division if they wanted to go that route. Then once all the division winners are taken care of random draw as to what order the divisions went to the table in the order of finish within their division only. Once the order is drawn it keeps that same rotation. That way shooters can't say well I've got a better chance to go to the table earlier if I switch divisions and shoot something else this match just for the prize table. This is just my ramblings and really means nothing. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 because it would be like trying to get skeet shooters to shoot sporting clays...the best skeet shooters would be at a disadvantage against the best sporting clays shooters because its not their game. So its comparing apples and oranges. try to imagine Kurt shooting Open 3gun...wow, just wow... The equipment is different, The load is different, everything is different. That being said, how many out there would be willing to attend a HeMan rifle match at the NRA Whgittington Center? I have been considering having one, keep getting "pursuasion" from a few HeMan shooters I have talked to about it, and I am curious. Jesse, I'm not trying to hijack your thread thou... jj Hi Jack away! This is exactly the sort of thing I was curious about. All the major matches are now filling up in seconds so why not have an alternative that broadens the sport. LaRue did have a different HM rule set and I remember seeing more HM shooters that usually shoot other divisions. But I didn't shoot the match so I'm not sure what or why the did what they did. From what I read in their rules, Larue did NOT do HM (HeMan or Heavy Metal) they did heavy tactical. basically 1/3rd HeMan. 308 scoped rifle, standard tactical rules on shotgun and pistol. (auto loading 20ga, and 9mm pistola) Another division to further fragment the HM shooters... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Ahem J.J. I have shot T.O. (won Superstition Mystery with a TA-11), I was the orriginal H.M. and shot at Arkansas two years ago, I have shot open with the gear I have and was 3rd at Area 6 a few years back...can you imagine?.....I can! OBTW It has been my experience that T.I. will always go last at the prise table...just like LaRue and many others! No one want T.I. because it is so small, I personally think we ought to do away with it....and I shoot it. 1X grew it a bit, but it still sucks hind T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 At Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, we set aside at least one JP rifle for each division and a couple more prizes reserved for Limited Scope only. That way all the 5 100%'s in division were able to get a great rifle OR they could choose to go to the big, single table and take any prize they wanted. We had $6000 in cash prizes ($2000, 3-$1000's and 2-$500's donated by NRA, USMC, Cheaper than Dirt), A bunch of scopes(Nightforce, Trijicon, Vortex, Burris), a Barrett, Benelli's, Bushmasters, DPMS's, Glocks, Seekins, Nordic Components, StagArms, Remingtons, POF's, Tactical Machining, Springfield, FNH's...over 60 guns, a Do-All Thrower, a 550, over 100 different sponsors worth of stuff, and everyone goes with percent in division---which is how they finished among people with like equipment... Top 1/4 in each division got the JP Expert Shooter Pin 2011! It's pretty easy to set up! ALL the shooters look at ALL the donations from sponsors because they ALL go to the same table. They know how generous all the sponsors are. Anyone can win the one of a kind prizes($1000 Stack-On safe, Rugged Gear Cart, Truckvault Print)...not just a specific division. There was some concern last year, but we posted a more thorough explanation at the match and it went a lot smoother this year...but, part of that, is that we had a LOT of stuff!!!! Thanks to all our sponsors, I didn't mention all 100 of you and for that, I'm sorry, but I'm running on already! Ergo Grips had already given $3750 to the top 4 juniors, but they went to the table in percent of division as well. I like it because the sponsors get more exposure...and nobody comes to the match for the prize table anyway... We think it's a fair way of doing it! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) I sadly kinda agree with my amigo, here in the US we should do away with Iron sight divisions as a whole. MD's simply do not want to set things up right, fair, whatever you want to call it. It may be done correctly once in the match but as the match progresses things fall apart. Then when the match is over and the prizes are set out, they generally suck hind T, for those divisions, and the "excuse" is that well do you expect us to take prizes from the larger divisions???? RM3G, has done an admirable job at trying to alleviate that issue, but even the shoot offs screw the smaller (lesser) divisions by only utilizing one competitor, so if you want a better chance at a better prize or a better chance at the shoot offs, or being noticed by any potential sponsors, the choice is obvious. Don't shoot in a division that uses equipment that no one cares about. Shoot the divisions with the most competitors because MOST is obviously better. Trapr Edited September 7, 2011 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Ahem J.J. I have shot T.O. (won Superstition Mystery with a TA-11), I was the orriginal H.M. and shot at Arkansas two years ago, I have shot open with the gear I have and was 3rd at Area 6 a few years back...can you imagine?.....I can! OBTW It has been my experience that T.I. will always go last at the prise table...just like LaRue and many others! No one want T.I. because it is so small, I personally think we ought to do away with it....and I shoot it. 1X grew it a bit, but it still sucks hind T. I was talking about seeing you with full open gear, dots, scopes, bipods, speedloader shotgun tubes, the whole enchilada! No doubt you could hold your own just shooting your normal stuff in open thou... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 do the TO guys really want the iron shooters messing up their good thing. I won a Vortex Viper at the Nordic shotgun match. My fist scope. I have options now. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caz41 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 do the TO guys really want the iron shooters messing up their good thing. I won a Vortex Viper at the Nordic shotgun match. My fist scope. I have options now. Jay Sadly enough he mounted it backwards and had a hell of a time sighting it in.... sorry Jay couldn't resist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I think local matches are the place to experiment with this stuff. Do it and see how popular it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I don't care what the equipment divisions are. I will still go shoot the matches that are fun and that I can get to, and get into. If the stages are good and the match is well run I would compete in the Red Rider division if that was what the MD offered. I only started shooting limited when there was no HM option offered, now with limited not being offered at area 1 I put together a TO rifle to try out. Something for the TO and open shooters to remember, the limited and HM guys can hit the targets without magnification or BD reticles, it would stand to reason that we would still be able to hit the targets with thosse crutches. The long range tactical matches only have one set of equipment rules, and they sell out as well, possibly those MD are on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajun0007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Excuse me if this has been brought up in the past but is it possible (allowed) to shoot 2 separate divisions in the same match? For example, Tac Ops and Tac Iron and the only additional equipment needed would be the other rifle. You would obviously use the same pistol and shotgun for both divisions. Of course I would expect to pay two entry fees. Doing this would allow people to not only shoot the popular Tac Ops but try something out of their comfort zone like Tac Iron. By doing so you would get increased participation in all divisions. Would matches allow this? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 This thread reminded me of a concept I thought of that was inspired by the IROC racing series years ago. It would be a no division tournament where everyone used the same equipment d.onated by the sponsors and the stages would be based on the four current divisions. You would have 2 stages each for tac optic, open, tac iron, and he man. Equipment is on the prize table at the end of the match. I have sways wanted to try open and others probably would like to try other divisions also withou the expense to see if its for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 This thread reminded me of a concept I thought of that was inspired by the IROC racing series years ago. It would be a no division tournament where everyone used the same equipment d.onated by the sponsors and the stages would be based on the four current divisions. You would have 2 stages each for tac optic, open, tac iron, and he man. Equipment is on the prize table at the end of the match. I have sways wanted to try open and others probably would like to try other divisions also withou the expense to see if its for them. There is a huge upside here for whoever elects to sponsor this type of match as I could for example compare a Glock vs a FN vs a XD pistol in a side by side test. You could have six stages with 3 sets of sponsors where they would each provide the firearms for 2 stages. By way of example, Remington could really roll out their Versa and XRail could gain a lot of attention on a stage compared to a Saiga on another. Same with equipment and ammo. Think of how many shooters would be excited about showing up to shoot bringing only their shooting atire and favor hat in their luggage. This type of match could be held anywhere with adequate range space since all you really need is a decent range with good airport connections. Take the usual match fee and add $100 and you still are going to be turning folks away even if you set it up to shoot over 3 days making it the largest three gun match ever. The first match organizer who bites on this will redefine three gun or even a single gun match. We do not need a dozen of these matches but it is about the only idea that would come anywhere near to changeing shooting like this year's AR15.com match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 This thread reminded me of a concept I thought of that was inspired by the IROC racing series years ago. It would be a no division tournament where everyone used the same equipment d.onated by the sponsors and the stages would be based on the four current divisions. You would have 2 stages each for tac optic, open, tac iron, and he man. Equipment is on the prize table at the end of the match. I have sways wanted to try open and others probably would like to try other divisions also withou the expense to see if its for them. This sounds like a great side match but I dont think a lot of guys that are shooting 10's of thousands of rounds of practice ammo through their custom race guns are gonna spend too much money to roll the dice on an entire match with what are essentially prop guns. I do like this concept in say the amateur side of the ProAm match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Jessie is right in that this type of match will not take over shooting for the reasons he outlines. But I do think there is market for it. Shooters would approach it as a Top Shot type of match. Anyone know where you rent cannons and gatling guns? I already have a tomahawk.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 This thread reminded me of a concept I thought of that was inspired by the IROC racing series years ago. It would be a no division tournament where everyone used the same equipment d.onated by the sponsors and the stages would be based on the four current divisions. You would have 2 stages each for tac optic, open, tac iron, and he man. Equipment is on the prize table at the end of the match. I have sways wanted to try open and others probably would like to try other divisions also withou the expense to see if its for them. This sounds like a great side match but I dont think a lot of guys that are shooting 10's of thousands of rounds of practice ammo through their custom race guns are gonna spend too much money to roll the dice on an entire match with what are essentially prop guns. I do like this concept in say the amateur side of the ProAm match. Im not sure who those 10 guys are, but would you like a match like that? Some of the most fun I have had at big matches was shooting the differant guns that some provided. I believe this could be much more than a side match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 This thread reminded me of a concept I thought of that was inspired by the IROC racing series years ago. It would be a no division tournament where everyone used the same equipment d.onated by the sponsors and the stages would be based on the four current divisions. You would have 2 stages each for tac optic, open, tac iron, and he man. Equipment is on the prize table at the end of the match. I have sways wanted to try open and others probably would like to try other divisions also withou the expense to see if its for them. There is a huge upside here for whoever elects to sponsor this type of match as I could for example compare a Glock vs a FN vs a XD pistol in a side by side test. You could have six stages with 3 sets of sponsors where they would each provide the firearms for 2 stages. By way of example, Remington could really roll out their Versa and XRail could gain a lot of attention on a stage compared to a Saiga on another. Same with equipment and ammo. Think of how many shooters would be excited about showing up to shoot bringing only their shooting atire and favor hat in their luggage. This type of match could be held anywhere with adequate range space since all you really need is a decent range with good airport connections. Take the usual match fee and add $100 and you still are going to be turning folks away even if you set it up to shoot over 3 days making it the largest three gun match ever. The first match organizer who bites on this will redefine three gun or even a single gun match. We do not need a dozen of these matches but it is about the only idea that would come anywhere near to changeing shooting like this year's AR15.com match. Charles, we seem to be on the same page here. Those are points that are right on. I really wish somebody with more experiance and contacts than I would step up or at least consider its viability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 the biggest problem is that the shooters in the "other" divisions tend to be more flexible in what equipment they use, but I don't see the big division shooters going out of their way to shoot limited gear or HM gear or open gear, they talk about wanting to but in the end they simply don't. I feel its because MD's, matches, and whole organizations have pretty much catered to their desires and wants at the expense of the "other" divisions. HM, Limited, and Open shooters are much more likely to go and compete in a match and not use their normal gear than are the TO shooters. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 the biggest problem is that the shooters in the "other" divisions tend to be more flexible in what equipment they use, but I don't see the big division shooters going out of their way to shoot limited gear or HM gear or open gear, they talk about wanting to but in the end they simply don't. I feel its because MD's, matches, and whole organizations have pretty much catered to their desires and wants at the expense of the "other" divisions. HM, Limited, and Open shooters are much more likely to go and compete in a match and not use their normal gear than are the TO shooters. Trapr Hmm, or maybe not. O3G last week, Tac-Irons, 1st and 2nd were two guys from TO moving to TI. 3rd place was an ex-HI guy who had been in TO most of this year. Popplewell, Romero, also ex-TO guys who are now winning in Heavy divisions. Sure that is only at the top, but there are a lot of little known guys moving from TO to other divisions. You might be right for Open, but then I can't fault that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Trapr I may not be indicative of the top in Tac optic, but that is the division I shoot pretty much exclusively. Counter to your point I would jump all over a match like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) my thoughts are in reference to the masses not 3-5 individuals, also lately movement is being generated by people wanting to gain more points for the 3GN series than actual desire. So that is skewing what would ordinarily occur. Popplewell, has been shooting HMO for the last couple years, to say he just jumped out of TO recently is not an accurate statement. Mark, as I said above there are a few that would relish the additional challenge, but many more are not willing to adjust practice routines or even practice at all for a new challenge. I'm with you I think if you want to award the best shooter then make everyone shoot ALL divisions not, everyone shoot the SAME division. Trapr Edited September 17, 2011 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Trapr go look at who is always at Blue Ridge and was at AR15. For ever person there looking for 3GN points, there are a herd who are not. You attend matches all over the place and I know you see many many faces at each match who are motivated to be there but they are not going to the shootoffs and they know it. In other words folks like me. The prospect of me jumping on a plane and just going and not having to worry about weapons or ammo really would take most of the pre match stress off of everyone. I may end up shooting guns I have never shot before but so will everyone else. And all the guns might not have to be the same. For example you could have a Glock and a XD on the same stage and rotate use and draw some results on shich one is a better bet for 3 gun. I would get a hands on chance to try new optics and weapons over the course of a match and all the guns on the prize table could thus be "lightly used." I really believe that this could do as much to influence the future of our matches as what we saw with at the Pro/Am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Happy Birthday Trapr, speculating on the masses not withstanding, would you attend a match like this? Assuming the stages, scoring target presentation et- al was to your liking. There's no handiicap to using differant weapons than you train with if everyone is using the same thing at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Mark, i liked your idea, and would attend. Right now i think its the best idea for determining the best all around shooter. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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