Frustrating day at the range.

[olp73]

I went to the range this weekend and my plan was to test my rifle for accuracy and to get a feeling of point of aim/point of impact at different ranges. (50/100/200 meters). I know that this is more important at longer ranges but 200 meters is all we got. I have never really tested the rifle for accuracy before. Meaning, I have shoot some groups put not really done my best, group after group to see what I can consistently get out of it.I brought 3 different loads. (Barnaul 55gr FMJ, Fiocchi 55gr FMJ, Fiocchi 50gr HP.) and I just happened to have 5 rounds of S&B 55gr FMJ left over in my range bag. The later has given me ok results before, but none of them has given me the results I am hoping for.

The accuracy testing was done from 100 meters with a bipod. I read about you guys talking about 0.5 inch groups but I am not even close. Consistently I get 2 inches, some a little better, some worse. I really expected the Barnaul round to be all over the place compared to the other loads, but it was only about an inch worse.

The rifle has a Rainier (Shilen) 1:7.7 barrel cut to 17" with a Wylde chamber that has seen around 1000 rounds of S&B 55gr. FMJ. That's all.

The question is general and maybe impossible to answer, but what am I doing wrong? I do not reload for the rifle so I have to use what is available. I am open to everything from breathing techniques to cleaning regimes. I am clueless.

Edited September 4, 2011 by olp73

[DyNo!]

Under certain circumstances, 2 inches with M193 at 100 yards is normal and acceptable.

What is your sighting mechanism? Are you shooting a target with a clear POA? (Search for my "zeroing target" on Enos - I'll be making a video based on the bikini target soon) Was the wind blowing 15 miles per hour?

Shoot ammunition with better bullets and I'd bet your groups get tighter. I'd bet that your ammo is fine and is shooting at close to the accuracy it's capable of. There's nothing wrong with shooting it in matches that it'll hit things. (Close range or targets that are big enough to take a hit from the round)

Personally, I wouldn't put time into chasing tiny groups - it sounds like your rifle and ammo are just fine.

Edited September 4, 2011 by DyNo!

[MarkCO]

What is your sighting system? 2" for factory 55s is not bad, probably about average. Black Hills match may cut your groups some for longer range.

[olp73]

I use a TR 24 scope. Green triangle. The target was the army’s zero target for hk 416. It has a black spot that I held on top of the triangle.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Try some 55gr and 69 gr black hills ammo. Remanufactured will save u a few bucks. Cheapest I have found is from ammunitiontogo.com. If the black hills won't shoot sub MOA you need better trigger and breathing control or a better barrel.

[ihatepickles]

When shooting for groups, make the aiming point different than the impact point by using the elevation and windage controls. Choose an aiming point that you can easily repeat, like the corner of a square on the target as opposed to trying to hold the center of a square. You don't want the aiming point and impact point to be the same, because the incoming rounds will start to chew up the aiming point. Once you find a good grouping ammo, coincide the two again.

I'm not surprised Fiocchi doesn't group well. If you're not going to reload rifle, Black Hills remanufactured is a good call if the budget allows. With Fiocchi, I'd still think 1.25" at 100 yards is doable.

Use a rear bag with your bipod. Better still would be sandbags in the front and a rear bag.

The basics are the Marine Corps standard BRASS. Breathe, relax, aim, sights, squeeze.

Breathe: take in natural breaths, not shallow or deep

Relax: don't let tension take over your body, don't death grip anything

Aim: pick a target, and choose something small on that target to aim for

Sights: align your sights on your aiming point, adjust for parallax on your scope

Squeeze: pause breathing halfway through a breath and squeeze the trigger with the pad of your finger until recoil surprises you

Better ammo and basic rifleman skills will get your groups below 1" at 100 yards.

[outerlimits]

When shooting for groups, make the aiming point different than the impact point by using the elevation and windage controls. Choose an aiming point that you can easily repeat, like the corner of a square on the target as opposed to trying to hold the center of a square. You don't want the aiming point and impact point to be the same, because the incoming rounds will start to chew up the aiming point. Once you find a good grouping ammo, coincide the two again.

I'm not surprised Fiocchi doesn't group well. If you're not going to reload rifle, Black Hills remanufactured is a good call if the budget allows. With Fiocchi, I'd still think 1.25" at 100 yards is doable.

Use a rear bag with your bipod. Better still would be sandbags in the front and a rear bag.

The basics are the Marine Corps standard BRASS. Breathe, relax, aim, sights, squeeze.

Breathe: take in natural breaths, not shallow or deep

Relax: don't let tension take over your body, don't death grip anything

Aim: pick a target, and choose something small on that target to aim for

Sights: align your sights on your aiming point, adjust for parallax on your scope

Squeeze: pause breathing halfway through a breath and squeeze the trigger with the pad of your finger until recoil surprises you

Better ammo and basic rifleman skills will get your groups below 1" at 100 yards.

actually, BRASS is "breath, relax, aim, slack, squeeze."

[Jesse Tischauser]

Hold your trigger back after each shot for longer than you normally would. Try to disconnect yourself from the rifle. Nothing but your cheek weld, finger tip, and the buttstock lightly touching your shoulder.

PMC is one of the best budget ammo out there. It will shoot 1 MOA out of a good barrel.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[J.Schmitt]

I would remove the bi-pod, go prone on sandbags both on the for-end and butt-stock. Get settled so you have no movement. Take a look at the link http://www.jprifles.com/1.6.3.php on the right side of the page you can download targets that might be useful.

Jay

[Lead-Head]

I have had bolt guns that did not shoot near as tight with a bipod as with good sandbags. I would agree that sandbags are the way to go to get a good group. It can be really hard to get a super tight group with a low power scope as well.

Under 2 inches with the ammo you mention is not that terrible. There are a lot of factors that have to be just right to get consistent 0.5 inch groups. I am perfertly happy with a 1.5 inch rifle that can produce consisten groups with 55 grain factory. As long as it runs reliably I don't see needing a tack-driver.

[Alaskapopo]

I went to the range this weekend and my plan was to test my rifle for accuracy and to get a feeling of point of aim/point of impact at different ranges. (50/100/200 meters). I know that this is more important at longer ranges but 200 meters is all we got. I have never really tested the rifle for accuracy before. Meaning, I have shoot some groups put not really done my best, group after group to see what I can consistently get out of it.I brought 3 different loads. (Barnaul 55gr FMJ, Fiocchi 55gr FMJ, Fiocchi 50gr HP.) and I just happened to have 5 rounds of S&B 55gr FMJ left over in my range bag. The later has given me ok results before, but none of them has given me the results I am hoping for.

The accuracy testing was done from 100 meters with a bipod. I read about you guys talking about 0.5 inch groups but I am not even close. Consistently I get 2 inches, some a little better, some worse. I really expected the Barnaul round to be all over the place compared to the other loads, but it was only about an inch worse.

The rifle has a Rainier (Shilen) 1:7.7 barrel cut to 17" with a Wylde chamber that has seen around 1000 rounds of S&B 55gr. FMJ. That's all.

The question is general and maybe impossible to answer, but what am I doing wrong? I do not reload for the rifle so I have to use what is available. I am open to everything from breathing techniques to cleaning regimes. I am clueless.

.5 moa consistently with 5 shot groups is rare in a semi auto precision rifle (not cherry picked 3 shot groups that are a fluke). The rifles that can do it are using match bullets not ball. My best accuracy has been with 77 grain Sierra Match Kings loaded with Vitavory N135 powder in once fired lake city brass. That load in my precision rifle does .65 moa as an average of over 30 5 shot groups at 100 yards. In my three gun rifle that load averages just under 1 moa at .95. With ball ammo 1.5 to 2.5 moa is the norm.

Pat

[Dwain C. Baer]

For me, a bad day at the range is better than a good day at the office...

[mpeltier]

I have had the best groups with a 1:7.7 twist bbl shooting quality 75 gr loads. Ppu/prvi makes a decent one that may be more available to you.

[Mr.Kirk]

When an automatic rifle slams the round into the chamber it pretty much F**ks it up. If you watch the guys who shoot them in a sigle-load type of match you will see that they (winners) place the round in the chamber by hand and then release the bolt. once the chamber's hot you need to be carefull not to leave a round in there too long before you shoot. As the powder heats up in the chamber your ballistics are changing.

You might try and put something like a shooting mat between your bipod and any hard surface that you are shooting from. Bipods work best in the dirt. Stabilizing the back of the rifle with something other than your hand will make a difference.

If you have 1k rounds thru it, you need to make sure that you are using some sort of copper solvent to get all of the fowling out. Once it's out you will want to fowl it again prior to shooting for groups, but just a little 5-10 rounds. Shoot that 5-10 rounds just prior to shooting for a group. this will warm up your barrel for consistency and allow you to find your position.

[mertbl]

What kind of fore end is on your rifle? Could a non free floated fore end account for this problem?

[olp73]

What kind of fore end is on your rifle? Could a non free floated fore end account for this problem?

Handguard is a YHM free float tube simular to a JP type. Should be ok?

[T Bacus]

Many issues here. First most 1-7 barrels will shoot 62-75gr bullets much better than 55gr. As many have already said, 55gr ball is not noted for being match grade ammo. I had the same experience with my rifle, 1.5 - 2" with all types of ball. Then I shot some Hornady 60gr TAP and pow, .75". Next question, what other rifles do you have that you consistently shoot sub MOA with? What is your experience with group shooting? The Trijicon is an excellent three gun scope but it would not be most peoples first choice when trying to shoot little groups. It can be done but it is certainly harder than with a 10 or 16 power scope with conventional cross hairs.

[olp73]

Many issues here. First most 1-7 barrels will shoot 62-75gr bullets much better than 55gr. As many have already said, 55gr ball is not noted for being match grade ammo. I had the same experience with my rifle, 1.5 - 2" with all types of ball. Then I shot some Hornady 60gr TAP and pow, .75". Next question, what other rifles do you have that you consistently shoot sub MOA with? What is your experience with group shooting? The Trijicon is an excellent three gun scope but it would not be most peoples first choice when trying to shoot little groups. It can be done but it is certainly harder than with a 10 or 16 power scope with conventional cross hairs.

Thanks, barrel is 1:7.7 so more like 8. I am Afraid that I am more of a pistol shooter and rifle shooting is all new to me. (this is my only rifle.) Maybe I hade to high expectations. I wanted to get it right the first time and built up something form the ground with only quality parts. Given my background, shooting groups with a bipod from 100 meters seemed doable. it might be more to it than I first thought.

[olp73]

I thought it might be a good idea to have a “follow up” report on this post. Like, what I have learned since the original post.

It has become really clear to me that if you want to shoot groups with a rifle you have to pay attention to details. Really small thing make a big differences. So, apart from reading a little and try to really concentrate and do things right I have tried a number of loads with heavier bullets.

Like several posters have pointed out 1:7,7 barrels shoots better with heavier bullets, the 69gr. Sierra Match King which performs astonishing well. 0,5 moa no doubt. The difference between light vs heavy is so clear that even the Barnaul 62gr SP (lacquer coated) shoots better or just as good as the best 55gr ammo, which is the Fiocchi 55gr FMJ (red box). I might have been a little quick to judge this load. It is at least 1,5 moa consistently.

[Alaskapopo]

Many issues here. First most 1-7 barrels will shoot 62-75gr bullets much better than 55gr. As many have already said, 55gr ball is not noted for being match grade ammo. I had the same experience with my rifle, 1.5 - 2" with all types of ball. Then I shot some Hornady 60gr TAP and pow, .75". Next question, what other rifles do you have that you consistently shoot sub MOA with? What is your experience with group shooting? The Trijicon is an excellent three gun scope but it would not be most peoples first choice when trying to shoot little groups. It can be done but it is certainly harder than with a 10 or 16 power scope with conventional cross hairs.

That has not been my experience. My 1/7 twist Noveskes shoot 52 grain match bullets as well as they do the 77 grain match ammo. While my 1/8 Larue has a preferance for 68 to 77 grain bullets.

pat

[CJW]

My 3-Gun rifle has a Krieger 1:7.7" barrel, 20" HBAR. I generally shoot Georgia Arms remanufactured 69gr Sierra Match King .223 with it. It's definitely sub-MOA, and would probably do 0.5MOA with better ammo. With M193, it is probably a lot closer to 2MOA.