Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I'm looking for a new production gun and the top two on my list are the M&P9l/pro and a CZ Shadow (most likely the target model) The M&P is FAR cheaper, but I keep seeing anecdotal evidence that it's ammo sensitive as far as accuracy, or lack thereof. The CZ, I see the exact opposite in posts across the interweb. I'm sure the M&P is "accurate enough" but I don't mind paying a bit more for a gun that has a better chance, mechanically speaking of course, of holding 2" groups at 25yds. The other concern is the trigger. I've shot M&Ps with the full Apex kit that are right around 3 lbs, consistently. My M&P 357 just has the sear and is a decent 4.5ish. The CZ, on the other hand will have that heavier first pull at 7 or so, but a nice light SA. But numbers of course don't tell the whole story. How much better is the CZ Shadow target SA than an Apex fitted M&P, qualitatively speaking? I like the idea that the Shadow is pretty much good to go out of the box, as compared the the M&P, for which I'd want quite a few add ons. I like that it's steel. I prefer the feel of steel over plastic. I don't mind plastic, and love my M&P357. It's just not much of a game gun, and I'm told by some very good shooters whom I respect immensely that I could benefit from switching to 9mm in place of full power 357Sig. I don't know if I'll be able to overcome the DA pull. It seems like many shooters don't/can't, and there's a lingering thought that maybe there's some wisdom in the crowd. I've read some conflicting stuff about how light the DA can be made and still reliably ignite primers other than Federal. Will the 13# main be sufficient, or will it need a 15#? I'd love to try before I buy, but Shadows, much less Shadows I'd be able to rent/borrow, are like unicorns in these parts. Would the CZ really be worth the $400 or so dollar premium over a decked out M&P9L/Pro in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 What are you going to use the gun for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Primarily USPSA Production and Steel matches. Maybe the occasional IDPA ESP, or SSP if I feel like putting the porker CZ on diet to get it under 39oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Primarily USPSA Production and Steel matches. Maybe the occasional IDPA ESP, or SSP if I feel like putting the porker CZ on diet to get it under 39oz. You could go this route for IDPA SSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Can you use a double/single action gun for SSP? Might check that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 **Disclaimer... I like CZs" Hard to say which you will like more. Certainly when you first get it the M&P will probably feel better to you as it is a familiar platform and you don't have the da/sa trigger. I still find the CZ to be the best feeling gun in my hand, and I mean of any gun. I like the feel of a steel framed gun. The recoil from the Shadow and to a slightly lesser degree the 75 Shadow is noticeably less than the plastic brigade. It will take you some time to get used to the da/sa trigger. There is no way around that unless you want to go to Federal primers. You will probably find that it is the first sa shot after the da that causes you the most grief. That surprised me. I know a couple folks who have sold their Shadows here because they couldn't get used to the trigger. Accuracy of the CZ is crazy. Not sure about the M&P. You can comfortably use a 13lb MS. Mine ignited every WSP. It is definitely a heavier gun than the M&P. Personally I find I shoot drills faster/better with a heavier gun but that is just me. YMMV. The 75 Shadow would be a good choice if you play IDPA games. Well under weight and it is my tool for USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 The cz is going to stay put in recoil. It just takes the light hit of the 9mm and absorbs it. The polymer guns are lighter to transition with, run with, walk around all day with, but you pay the price in recoil when that front end is just flopping around out there. For stand and shoots, my xdm 5.25 will outshoot my cz IN MY HAND. Probably not for everybody, but it is for me. I like them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philo_Beddoe Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) I have a custom shadow and sold my M&P pro with the apex comp trigger kit. The shadow was simply more accurate, noticably so. Remember in production every thing is scored minor, in production a C hit loses 40%, D hit is 80%, in the other divisions shooting major its only 20% for a C and 60% for a D. Simply put, shooting A's matters alot more in production for your hit factor. If I were you I would buy the 75 shadow, not the SP-01 shadow, if you are going to shoot in IPDA simply because of the weight limit in ipda. I have shot both and the SP-01 does have less muzzle flip, but transitions slower, but both will have alot less flip then their polymer counterparts, although the M&P is comfortable to shoot. I have a shadow target and I do prefer its adjustable sights to the Dawsons adj I had on the m&p. If you have trouble with the heavy first pull ( I only really notice it on the classifer with a weak hand first shot), you can always buy Cajun gun works ultra lite double action kit and run federal primers. http://www.cajungunworks.com/ultra-lite.html Another consideration is how comfortable are you lowering the hammer manually to make ready? Some people are just not good at this procedure. Never botherd me, but I have seen some people get all nervous about it. Of course I was raised on guns with hammers so I am used to them. Edited August 23, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Primarily USPSA Production and Steel matches. Maybe the occasional IDPA ESP, or SSP if I feel like putting the porker CZ on diet to get it under 39oz. You could go this route for IDPA SSP. If your going to do that might as well get adjustable sights like this one. LINK I've been shooting the Shadow for about a week now and I really enjoy it. It doesn't move on recoil, and has a nice trigger to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 I'm not horribly concerned about being able to shoot it in IDPA. It's not my favorite game, so I don't do it very often. I like the short dustcover models, but with the buying options I currently have, the short dustcover Shadow carries about a $100 premium over an SP01 Shadow target, when shipping and the extra magazine are taken into account. I'm on the fence whether being able to use it in IDPA is worth that much to me, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 I wonder how telling it is that the M&P has the same number of votes as "bacon" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) I have a 75 Shadow. I really like it. I've had a plain SP-01 shadow for almost 2 years now, but it never got shot due to being over weight for IDPA and I didnt want to switch back and forth to a gun that was IDPA legal. I shot an M&P Pro in IDPA and Production for a while. I had just the Apex sear, and stock Pro everything else. I had to keep the trigger above 3 or 3.5 lbs for Bianchi, so I didnt care to add the rest of that stuff. I've felt some Burwell and Apex triggers that are just scary light in the M&P's. When the 75 Shadow came out I had to try it. Bought one, shot it 2 weeks, and sold the M&P. My only complaint is.. the trigger seems to be heavier at the rebound spring, than it actually is to trip the sear. I would like less rebound, and the same or heavier pull at the sear. Weak hand first shot takes some practice.. you just have to focus even more on the front sight while making a smooth trigger pull. ETA- I voted Bacon, as long as its the . Edited August 23, 2011 by DWFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) The S&W M&P9L was discontinued. I wouldn't compete with any gun that required learning two trigger pulls, although if I was going to, the CZ is my favorite. Edited August 23, 2011 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Have you tried to "adjust" the trigger-return spring? I did that to mine and the resultant improvement is quite meaningful. My only complaint is.. the trigger seems to be heavier at the rebound spring, than it actually is to trip the sear. I would like less rebound, and the same or heavier pull at the sear. ETA- I voted Bacon, as long as its the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Have you tried to "adjust" the trigger-return spring? I did that to mine and the resultant improvement is quite meaningful. My only complaint is.. the trigger seems to be heavier at the rebound spring, than it actually is to trip the sear. I would like less rebound, and the same or heavier pull at the sear. ETA- I voted Bacon, as long as its the . Not yet, its on my list of to do's just need to find the time, and instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Never shot a cz, so I can speak on that. I have a m&p pro, but sent it to burwell instead of going with Apex. Everyone who shoots it has nothing but good things to say about it. I love it, but I do plan on getting a kkm barrel to increase accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 I have a 75 Shadow. I really like it. I've had a plain SP-01 shadow for almost 2 years now, but it never got shot due to being over weight for IDPA and I didnt want to switch back and forth to a gun that was IDPA legal. I shot an M&P Pro in IDPA and Production for a while. I had just the Apex sear, and stock Pro everything else. I had to keep the trigger above 3 or 3.5 lbs for Bianchi, so I didnt care to add the rest of that stuff. I've felt some Burwell and Apex triggers that are just scary light in the M&P's. When the 75 Shadow came out I had to try it. Bought one, shot it 2 weeks, and sold the M&P. My only complaint is.. the trigger seems to be heavier at the rebound spring, than it actually is to trip the sear. I would like less rebound, and the same or heavier pull at the sear. Weak hand first shot takes some practice.. you just have to focus even more on the front sight while making a smooth trigger pull. ETA- I voted Bacon, as long as its the . If you're considering letting the Sp01 Shadow go, let me know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Never shot a cz, so I can speak on that. I have a m&p pro, but sent it to burwell instead of going with Apex. Everyone who shoots it has nothing but good things to say about it. I love it, but I do plan on getting a kkm barrel to increase accuracy So, would it be fair to say you're not super impressed with the accuracy? Also, I've read that the KKMs are dimensionally identical to the stocker. Is that true? If so, how do they help with accuracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 If you read some the forums, M&P's of lately have been spotty/picky with accuracy and loads. I got lucky, and mine would shoot 124gr montana gold's really well, along with 147gr lead/moly. I shot it a lot at 50 yards for bianchi, and my abilities couldnt keep up with it. Of course you read about more problems, than you do guns that shoot well so who knows what the exact ratio is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) If you read some the forums, M&P's of lately have been spotty/picky with accuracy and loads. I got lucky, and mine would shoot 124gr montana gold's really well, along with 147gr lead/moly. I shot it a lot at 50 yards for bianchi, and my abilities couldnt keep up with it. Of course you read about more problems, than you do guns that shoot well so who knows what the exact ratio is. Good point. My luck is such that I'd almost certainly end up with one of the lemons. But for $400 or so, I'm tempted to take that chance. It'd be an easier decision if I knew what the ratio (my odds) were. I think that's my real sticking point. Cheap with a consistent 3lbs trigger is tough to beat, IF I can have some confidence that the gun can hold a group (even if I can't). But after reading post after post of accuracy complaints, I'm thinking there might be some fire under all that smoke. Edited August 23, 2011 by Racer377 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill40718 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Racer377, Have you given any thought to the new Springfield XDm 5.25? A couple threads here indicate some pretty good accuracy. Price seems to be between the M&P Pro and the CZ's. Just a thought. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 I can't say that I had. I am now, though! a 5.25 with a SP kit comes out just bit more $$ than the M&P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill40718 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Last I checked Springer still had one or two. I have one (in .40S&W) Scott did and another(a 5.25) coming. His triggers are great and service is outstanding. Good Luck, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck1 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) My take is that you're talking about two very different animals, apples to oranges as they say... M&P's, if you get one that doesn't have any issues (many do) can be made to be very very good after sending them to Burwell or installing the Apex stuff, they'll end up as good or better than any of the other polymer/striker guns out there for sure... But... The CZ Shadows are on a different plain IMO and are just upper echelon guns in comparison that don't really need anything straight out of the box, and no matter how much you were to spend upgrading any M&P, it would never be up to anywhere near where the Shadows sit on day one. A Shadow Custom's trigger will hang with a sweet 1911 in SA and a top shelf revolver in DA, not to mention the extra weight, 1911-like barrel-lug lock-up, and long slide rails... It's always more Indian than arrow, but frankly, arms-race speaking, a Shadow can honestly contribute to a guy seeming to become a better Indian "overnight" then as is the case with even a tricked-out M&P. Edited to add: it's not really "cheap plastic vs. expensive steel"; a 5" M&P pro with Apex guts or a trip to Burwell is around a $900 piece of plastic, to get what a $1000 Shadow gets you would be well north of $2k in the 1911 world... the Shadows are worth every penny of what they cost IMHO. (In fact, the fact that you haven't found a Shadow to try yet doesn't surprise me... guys order them and keep them, used ones last mere minutes before they're snapped up.) Edited August 24, 2011 by ck1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Bassman Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 For me, it's the CZ. Before I bought my last pistol, I went to the range, rented both, and used a target to tell the difference. The S&W was nice. I liked it much better than the XD, and certainly more than any Glock I've ever shot. I was somewhat accurate with it, but when I picked up the CZ it was a completely different game. The CZ felt much better in my hand, and it was a much more accurate pistol. Keep in mind that these were range rats - stock 75B vs. M&P. In the end, I went with the CZ 75 Shadow, and I'm very happy with my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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