USPSA Revolver Participation

[ChrisC]

so how did you do 6/major vs 8/minor?

[ChrisC]

Cd662

I beleive that there are a faction of individuals that would shoot revolver in uspsa if they were allowed to shoot 8 round guns regardless of scoring. There are people that would shy away from standing reloads in a mostly 8 shot friendly format of uspsa. The side effect is that there will be some 6/major guys converting to 8/minor.

I believe the purpose of most of the research going on is if there is a significant difference between 6/major and 8/minor. I do not believe that you can incorporate 8/minor if there is a significant competitive advantage over the 6/major guns.

please correct me if I am wrong.

[No.343]

Cd662

I do not believe that you can incorporate 8/minor if there is a significant competitive advantage over the 6/major guns.

Gaining a competitive advantage should be the reason to incorporate 8 shot revolvers. Furthermore, if you are man enough to handle major loads, they should score them as major. Chris, you scores during monthly matches are already competitive with the production, L10 and SS shooters. With an eight shot revolver you would beat most of those guys. Isn't that what you/we are trying to do anyway?

[revoman]

Well here are the results of my local match where I competed against myself and guess what I beat myself. I am not sure what we want to see so I will try to keep it simple and just put down my hit factors for each stage.

1. 6shot/3.67 8shot/4.05

2. 6shot/3.70 8shot/4.04

3. 6shot/3.34 8shot/3.57

4. 6shot/2.37 8shot/2.25

Now for a short breakdown of the scores.

Stage 1: 3 arrays 8, 8 and 6. The 8 shot definitely had the advantage as you only needed 2 reloads compared to 3. Hits were all A's and the difference was the time to do the extra reload. 6 shot time 30.01 8 shot time 27.13.

Stage 2: 4 arrays 8, 4, 4 and 7. The 8 shot again made the difference as 2 reloads and with the 6 you had 4. Hits with the 6 shot were 20 A's and 3 C's time 30.24. Hits with the 8 shot were 17 A's, 5 C's and 1 D time 24.98.

Stage 3: 4 arrays 6, 6, 6 and 6. Only advantage I found on this one as the hits were the same 19 A's, 4 C's and 1 D was the light recoil of the minor caliber. I think it gained me the difference in time of 3.63. 33.85 for the 6 shot and 30.22 for the 8 shot.

Stage 4 CM 99-60: 3 arrays 2, 6 and 5. This was the only stage that the 6 shot won and it was due to the difference in hits. The hits on the 6 shot were 3 A's, 6 C's and 3 D's time of 21.10. Hits with the 8 shot were 6 A's, 2 C's and 5 D's time of 18.24.

So my assessment is that the 8 shot minor would have a definite advantage over the 6 major and with that I don't think a 8 shot whether it is major or minor should be included with the 6 shots.

I still am an advocate of adding a new division for the 8 shot but make it an open division with anything goes such as red dots and comps and another division 8 shot limited.

I hope this help with this poll and debate.

Dean Gomez

Revoman

[ChrisC]

Cd662

I do not believe that you can incorporate 8/minor if there is a significant competitive advantage over the 6/major guns.

Gaining a competitive advantage should be the reason to incorporate 8 shot revolvers. Furthermore, if you are man enough to handle major loads, they should score them as major. Chris, you scores during monthly matches are already competitive with the production, L10 and SS shooters. With an eight shot revolver you would beat most of those guys. Isn't that what you/we are trying to do anyway?

yes, yes it is.....

[lora]

100% with you on another division, but that wasn't an option given. If USPSA wanted to increase the numbers in revolvers. 6 shot and 7/8 shot division would certainly do it and not dilute the current revolver numbers. it may dilute the 6 shot group but most likely they would just move to the 7/8 group, still in revolvers and still in the total revolver count. Perhaps that may be a good conditional trial. That would certainly provide ample data to compare times and participation rates on the same COF on a national map across all skill levels.

Edited October 8, 2011 by lora

[earplug]

I would buy a eight shot revolver if I could use it in USPSA. I can't justify getting one for Steel Challenge, being able to use it for both games would be great. I'm challenged enough with only 6 shoots at steel.

I currently shoot USPSA with one 625 and use another with a Red Dot sight for Bullseye. At times I use a K frame for Bullseye or ICORE.

A eight shot N frame would be a nice addition.

[eak]

After talking to Bubber this weekend i think the eight shot deal is a viable way to go. Without getting technical if you shoot Icore you would understand the whole six shot, eight shot neutral deal. All i shoot is revolver fwiw so i definitely have a horse in this race, of course i have all the variations , six shot NRA, six shot USPSA and eight shot ICORE.

[Team Amish 1]

My personal opinion is that "6-shot Major or Minor" vs. "8-shot Minor only" would be an interesting ruling, similar to single stack.

Also, this would keep everything within the revolver division, without losing shooters to the production or limited divisions.

Oops, this would actually increase the smallish revo numbers...

As for comps and red dots: Open is Open - mag or cylinder.

[coldchar]

To beat a dead horse, many here have brought this out and many choose to ignore it. Icore has 6 round friendly stages, USPSA stages are 8 round friendly. The six shot revolver would become obsolete over night. There is no way to make up both a hostile stage set up and the two round advantage.

Revolvers are all about six shooters. Never heard John Wayne talk about 8 shooters.

[ChrisC]

But john wayne seemed to shoot more than 6 before reloading

[Team Amish 1]

But john wayne seemed to shoot more than 6 before reloading

didn't have to aim, either

and Patton never carried a 2011...

Edited October 10, 2011 by Team Amish 1

[No.343]

I thought John Wayne only loaded five to keep his foot safe.

[revoman]

But john wayne seemed to shoot more than 6 before reloading

Now that is funny and by the way there is room on the squad that I am on at the Memphis match

[Bubber]

Well here are the results of my local match where I competed against myself and guess what I beat myself. I am not sure what we want to see so I will try to keep it simple and just put down my hit factors for each stage.

1. 6shot/3.67 8shot/4.05

2. 6shot/3.70 8shot/4.04

3. 6shot/3.34 8shot/3.57

4. 6shot/2.37 8shot/2.25

Now for a short breakdown of the scores.

Stage 1: 3 arrays 8, 8 and 6. The 8 shot definitely had the advantage as you only needed 2 reloads compared to 3. Hits were all A's and the difference was the time to do the extra reload. 6 shot time 30.01 8 shot time 27.13.

Stage 2: 4 arrays 8, 4, 4 and 7. The 8 shot again made the difference as 2 reloads and with the 6 you had 4. Hits with the 6 shot were 20 A's and 3 C's time 30.24. Hits with the 8 shot were 17 A's, 5 C's and 1 D time 24.98.

Stage 3: 4 arrays 6, 6, 6 and 6. Only advantage I found on this one as the hits were the same 19 A's, 4 C's and 1 D was the light recoil of the minor caliber. I think it gained me the difference in time of 3.63. 33.85 for the 6 shot and 30.22 for the 8 shot.

Stage 4 CM 99-60: 3 arrays 2, 6 and 5. This was the only stage that the 6 shot won and it was due to the difference in hits. The hits on the 6 shot were 3 A's, 6 C's and 3 D's time of 21.10. Hits with the 8 shot were 6 A's, 2 C's and 5 D's time of 18.24.

So my assessment is that the 8 shot minor would have a definite advantage over the 6 major and with that I don't think a 8 shot whether it is major or minor should be included with the 6 shots.

I still am an advocate of adding a new division for the 8 shot but make it an open division with anything goes such as red dots and comps and another division 8 shot limited.

I hope this help with this poll and debate.

Dean Gomez

Revoman

Thanks for the data Dean. I take it ther was no way to shoot it differently with the 6 shot, as in engage a target from a different position than you did with the 8 shot. I am positive you thought of this but just checking for data sake. later rdd

[Bubber]

Well here are the results of my local match where I competed against myself and guess what I beat myself. I am not sure what we want to see so I will try to keep it simple and just put down my hit factors for each stage.

1. 6shot/3.67 8shot/4.05

2. 6shot/3.70 8shot/4.04

3. 6shot/3.34 8shot/3.57

4. 6shot/2.37 8shot/2.25

Now for a short breakdown of the scores.

Stage 1: 3 arrays 8, 8 and 6. The 8 shot definitely had the advantage as you only needed 2 reloads compared to 3. Hits were all A's and the difference was the time to do the extra reload. 6 shot time 30.01 8 shot time 27.13.

Stage 2: 4 arrays 8, 4, 4 and 7. The 8 shot again made the difference as 2 reloads and with the 6 you had 4. Hits with the 6 shot were 20 A's and 3 C's time 30.24. Hits with the 8 shot were 17 A's, 5 C's and 1 D time 24.98.

Stage 3: 4 arrays 6, 6, 6 and 6. Only advantage I found on this one as the hits were the same 19 A's, 4 C's and 1 D was the light recoil of the minor caliber. I think it gained me the difference in time of 3.63. 33.85 for the 6 shot and 30.22 for the 8 shot.

Stage 4 CM 99-60: 3 arrays 2, 6 and 5. This was the only stage that the 6 shot won and it was due to the difference in hits. The hits on the 6 shot were 3 A's, 6 C's and 3 D's time of 21.10. Hits with the 8 shot were 6 A's, 2 C's and 5 D's time of 18.24.

So my assessment is that the 8 shot minor would have a definite advantage over the 6 major and with that I don't think a 8 shot whether it is major or minor should be included with the 6 shots.

I still am an advocate of adding a new division for the 8 shot but make it an open division with anything goes such as red dots and comps and another division 8 shot limited.

I hope this help with this poll and debate.

Dean Gomez

Revoman

Thanks for the data Dean. I take it ther was no way to shoot it differently with the 6 shot, as in engage a target from a different position than you did with the 8 shot. I am positive you thought of this but just checking for data sake. later rdd

Edited to add...I noticed that each extra relod for the 6 shot netted a 3 second difference and the difference in the ones where the reloads were the same still netted a 3 seconds diference overall. Hmmm.... things to ponder. Later again.. rdd

[underlug]

Well here are the results of my local match where I competed against myself and guess what I beat myself. I am not sure what we want to see so I will try to keep it simple and just put down my hit factors for each stage.

1. 6shot/3.67 8shot/4.05

2. 6shot/3.70 8shot/4.04

3. 6shot/3.34 8shot/3.57

4. 6shot/2.37 8shot/2.25

Now for a short breakdown of the scores.

Stage 1: 3 arrays 8, 8 and 6. The 8 shot definitely had the advantage as you only needed 2 reloads compared to 3. Hits were all A's and the difference was the time to do the extra reload. 6 shot time 30.01 8 shot time 27.13.

Stage 2: 4 arrays 8, 4, 4 and 7. The 8 shot again made the difference as 2 reloads and with the 6 you had 4. Hits with the 6 shot were 20 A's and 3 C's time 30.24. Hits with the 8 shot were 17 A's, 5 C's and 1 D time 24.98.

Stage 3: 4 arrays 6, 6, 6 and 6. Only advantage I found on this one as the hits were the same 19 A's, 4 C's and 1 D was the light recoil of the minor caliber. I think it gained me the difference in time of 3.63. 33.85 for the 6 shot and 30.22 for the 8 shot.

Stage 4 CM 99-60: 3 arrays 2, 6 and 5. This was the only stage that the 6 shot won and it was due to the difference in hits. The hits on the 6 shot were 3 A's, 6 C's and 3 D's time of 21.10. Hits with the 8 shot were 6 A's, 2 C's and 5 D's time of 18.24.

So my assessment is that the 8 shot minor would have a definite advantage over the 6 major and with that I don't think a 8 shot whether it is major or minor should be included with the 6 shots.

I still am an advocate of adding a new division for the 8 shot but make it an open division with anything goes such as red dots and comps and another division 8 shot limited.

I hope this help with this poll and debate.

Dean Gomez

Revoman

Thanks for the data Dean. I take it ther was no way to shoot it differently with the 6 shot, as in engage a target from a different position than you did with the 8 shot. I am positive you thought of this but just checking for data sake. later rdd

Edited to add...I noticed that each extra relod for the 6 shot netted a 3 second difference and the difference in the ones where the reloads were the same still netted a 3 seconds diference overall. Hmmm.... things to ponder. Later again.. rdd

And I still haven't heard how classifiers would be handled. You cannot mix the 6 and 8 shooters.

[ChrisC]

its easy right now... 6 shot classifiers are handled like revolvers... 8 shot is either shot with only 6 shots or you go to Open... or don't submit the 8 shot scores...

[revoman]

Well here are the results of my local match where I competed against myself and guess what I beat myself. I am not sure what we want to see so I will try to keep it simple and just put down my hit factors for each stage.

1. 6shot/3.67 8shot/4.05

2. 6shot/3.70 8shot/4.04

3. 6shot/3.34 8shot/3.57

4. 6shot/2.37 8shot/2.25

Now for a short breakdown of the scores.

Stage 1: 3 arrays 8, 8 and 6. The 8 shot definitely had the advantage as you only needed 2 reloads compared to 3. Hits were all A's and the difference was the time to do the extra reload. 6 shot time 30.01 8 shot time 27.13.

Stage 2: 4 arrays 8, 4, 4 and 7. The 8 shot again made the difference as 2 reloads and with the 6 you had 4. Hits with the 6 shot were 20 A's and 3 C's time 30.24. Hits with the 8 shot were 17 A's, 5 C's and 1 D time 24.98.

Stage 3: 4 arrays 6, 6, 6 and 6. Only advantage I found on this one as the hits were the same 19 A's, 4 C's and 1 D was the light recoil of the minor caliber. I think it gained me the difference in time of 3.63. 33.85 for the 6 shot and 30.22 for the 8 shot.

Stage 4 CM 99-60: 3 arrays 2, 6 and 5. This was the only stage that the 6 shot won and it was due to the difference in hits. The hits on the 6 shot were 3 A's, 6 C's and 3 D's time of 21.10. Hits with the 8 shot were 6 A's, 2 C's and 5 D's time of 18.24.

So my assessment is that the 8 shot minor would have a definite advantage over the 6 major and with that I don't think a 8 shot whether it is major or minor should be included with the 6 shots.

I still am an advocate of adding a new division for the 8 shot but make it an open division with anything goes such as red dots and comps and another division 8 shot limited.

I hope this help with this poll and debate.

Dean Gomez

Revoman

Thanks for the data Dean. I take it ther was no way to shoot it differently with the 6 shot, as in engage a target from a different position than you did with the 8 shot. I am positive you thought of this but just checking for data sake. later rdd

Edited to add...I noticed that each extra relod for the 6 shot netted a 3 second difference and the difference in the ones where the reloads were the same still netted a 3 seconds diference overall. Hmmm.... things to ponder. Later again.. rdd

I engaged each array the same as there was not anyway to game the course to help eliminate unneeded steps. I forgot to put on stage 4 that the 6 shot took 2 reloads and the eight only 1. One thing that might also make a difference is that I shoot my 8 shoot more than my 6 and I did shoot my 610 for the 6 shot instead of my 625 and that was the only ammo I had loaded at the time. My 625 does load faster than my 610 and that could have brought the times a little closer.

[revoman]

As for comps and red dots: Open is Open - mag or cylinder.

To say an open 8 shot revolver is the same as a 26 round 38/9 pistol is like saying that a Vega is the same as a Porshe just because they both have slanted back windows.

[Bubber]

Well here are the results of my local match where I competed against myself and guess what I beat myself. I am not sure what we want to see so I will try to keep it simple and just put down my hit factors for each stage.

1. 6shot/3.67 8shot/4.05

2. 6shot/3.70 8shot/4.04

3. 6shot/3.34 8shot/3.57

4. 6shot/2.37 8shot/2.25

Now for a short breakdown of the scores.

Stage 1: 3 arrays 8, 8 and 6. The 8 shot definitely had the advantage as you only needed 2 reloads compared to 3. Hits were all A's and the difference was the time to do the extra reload. 6 shot time 30.01 8 shot time 27.13.

Stage 2: 4 arrays 8, 4, 4 and 7. The 8 shot again made the difference as 2 reloads and with the 6 you had 4. Hits with the 6 shot were 20 A's and 3 C's time 30.24. Hits with the 8 shot were 17 A's, 5 C's and 1 D time 24.98.

Stage 3: 4 arrays 6, 6, 6 and 6. Only advantage I found on this one as the hits were the same 19 A's, 4 C's and 1 D was the light recoil of the minor caliber. I think it gained me the difference in time of 3.63. 33.85 for the 6 shot and 30.22 for the 8 shot.

Stage 4 CM 99-60: 3 arrays 2, 6 and 5. This was the only stage that the 6 shot won and it was due to the difference in hits. The hits on the 6 shot were 3 A's, 6 C's and 3 D's time of 21.10. Hits with the 8 shot were 6 A's, 2 C's and 5 D's time of 18.24.

So my assessment is that the 8 shot minor would have a definite advantage over the 6 major and with that I don't think a 8 shot whether it is major or minor should be included with the 6 shots.

I still am an advocate of adding a new division for the 8 shot but make it an open division with anything goes such as red dots and comps and another division 8 shot limited.

I hope this help with this poll and debate.

Dean Gomez

Revoman

Thanks for the data Dean. I take it ther was no way to shoot it differently with the 6 shot, as in engage a target from a different position than you did with the 8 shot. I am positive you thought of this but just checking for data sake. later rdd

Edited to add...I noticed that each extra relod for the 6 shot netted a 3 second difference and the difference in the ones where the reloads were the same still netted a 3 seconds diference overall. Hmmm.... things to ponder. Later again.. rdd

I engaged each array the same as there was not anyway to game the course to help eliminate unneeded steps. I forgot to put on stage 4 that the 6 shot took 2 reloads and the eight only 1. One thing that might also make a difference is that I shoot my 8 shoot more than my 6 and I did shoot my 610 for the 6 shot instead of my 625 and that was the only ammo I had loaded at the time. My 625 does load faster than my 610 and that could have brought the times a little closer.

I figured as much Dean. Movement helps negate a small amount but you have to hit one for one on a 6 shot string. And it does not hurt for the 8 shot to push extremely hard and drop a boat load of points. later rdd

[underlug]

its easy right now... 6 shot classifiers are handled like revolvers... 8 shot is either shot with only 6 shots or you go to Open... or don't submit the 8 shot scores...

[/quote

Works for me. Does this make the 8 shooters happy? They will have to shoot part of the match without the advantage that (over) compensates for shooting major 6

Edited October 11, 2011 by underlug

[Bubber]

its easy right now... 6 shot classifiers are handled like revolvers... 8 shot is either shot with only 6 shots or you go to Open... or don't submit the 8 shot scores...

[/quote

Works for me. Does this make the 8 shooters happy? They will have to shoot part of the match without the advantage that (over) compensates for shooting major 6

They pretty much accepted it at our match. As this trial is at a very small scale. So far only one match and it only affected three shooters that either shot a 8 shot or a opticaly enhanced Revo. What was really nice is that the other 5 Six shot shooters accepted the trial, for without their acceptance we could not do this. The next one I can particpate in will be in December, as most of us will be somewhere else in November, (cough Memphis cough). Tell the gang Bubber sez hey. later rdd

[2alpha]

I hate standing reloads, it seems like that is the norm for USPSA matches if you shoot revolver, it's understandable because the matches are set up to be 8 round neutral it seems. But why would a revolver only match like Memphis have standing reloads in about every stage? It would be so much more fun with an 8 shot.

[Bubber]

Depending on how it looks in 3D after set up sometimes we are able to circumvent the standing reload by taking a target at a different location and lose one or two standiing reloads. Of course we usually talk this over in the squad to bounce the idea off several shooters so it is not realy gaming, unless you are on a different squad. Two weeks to Memphis. Later rdd