Matches without prizes...

[ErichF]

I'm surprised at the number of folks that expect free $hit to justify driving, lodging, and food for a match. That's kind of a ridiculous expectation, if you ask me. I have spent the last six years competing in a different hobby/sport at the National level, and NEVER expected free stuff, even when winning the contest. It was about seeing old friends again, enjoying the hobby, improving my skills, and maybe getting some wood (trophy or plaque) at the end of it all. The 16 hours of driving, hotel stays, food, etc is part of the game. If yer gonna whine about all that, stay home and just shoot in your local matches. If I did all the work to organize and put on a match, and the only thing you cared about was what free $hit you can get out me, I'd tell you to keep your precious self home next time. Door prizes, winner's merchandise, raffles and stuff are all gravy, and are NOT to be expected in honor of you showing up.

You want free crap, shoot your way up and get sponsored.

Rant off....

[Benelli Chick]

I'm surprised at the number of folks that expect free $hit to justify driving, lodging, and food for a match. That's kind of a ridiculous expectation, if you ask me. I have spent the last six years competing in a different hobby/sport at the National level, and NEVER expected free stuff, even when winning the contest. It was about seeing old friends again, enjoying the hobby, improving my skills, and maybe getting some wood (trophy or plaque) at the end of it all. The 16 hours of driving, hotel stays, food, etc is part of the game. If yer gonna whine about all that, stay home and just shoot in your local matches. If I did all the work to organize and put on a match, and the only thing you cared about was what free $hit you can get out me, I'd tell you to keep your precious self home next time. Door prizes, winner's merchandise, raffles and stuff are all gravy, and are NOT to be expected in honor of you showing up.

You want free crap, shoot your way up and get sponsored.

Rant off....

I don't think I know you, but...well said sir! and AMEN brother! Look forward to meeting you at a match sometime!

Denise

[Modoc]

I am coming into Multi/3 Gun from a different angle. Most of you know that I have been shooting Cowboy Action for quite a few years, and there we rarely have a "Prize Table". When I look at the match; it is Stages, Location, Who's Coming, is there camping available and possibly meals provided. The most I have paid for a match is $150 each, but that was 4 days with a great bunch of friends old and new, we camped the whole time on the range and the catered dinner Saturday night was as good as an upper level restaurant's. An added bonus is if the match is close to friends or family, so we can visit before or after.

Denise is spot on about expenses. I am part of the Match team for our annual CAS match and at $80/primary shooter and $65/for the spouse/significant other, we have to get a minimum of 55 shooters to break even. And this is with doing everything at the range, not going off site for the dinner or awards.

My Hat is off to all who step up to organize and run ANY successful large match.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I'm surprised at the number of folks that expect free $hit to justify driving, lodging, and food for a match. That's kind of a ridiculous expectation, if you ask me. I have spent the last six years competing in a different hobby/sport at the National level, and NEVER expected free stuff, even when winning the contest. It was about seeing old friends again, enjoying the hobby, improving my skills, and maybe getting some wood (trophy or plaque) at the end of it all. The 16 hours of driving, hotel stays, food, etc is part of the game. If yer gonna whine about all that, stay home and just shoot in your local matches. If I did all the work to organize and put on a match, and the only thing you cared about was what free $hit you can get out me, I'd tell you to keep your precious self home next time. Door prizes, winner's merchandise, raffles and stuff are all gravy, and are NOT to be expected in honor of you showing up.

You want free crap, shoot your way up and get sponsored.

Rant off....

I didn't think anyone was whining and I don't see the prize table as "free shit", especially when MDs take great pains to advertise prize table values to attract shooters. For me, it comes down to simple economics. If I can shoot my way to a decent prize (not always the case), I can afford to shoot more matches. Without the prize payback aspect, I couldn't afford to shoot many majors. Like many shooters, I make it a point to send a "thank you" note to the sponsors because their generosity truly makes it possible for me to play the game.

The prize table IS NOT the primary thing I look for in a match, but I'd be a liar if I said it wasn't a consideration when the average major match fee is approaching $300. Some shooters will take a morally superior position and say they don't care about the prize table; this sounds good, but I doubt it's really true with most.

If I were independently wealthy, maybe I'd feel differently. But like many here, there's only so much money coming in every month and we all have to make choices.

[Benelli Chick]

What about the 50% of 3-Gun shooters that get 55% or so and below at these matches???

They're really not getting "payback." Sometimes we get a prize that we really need...that's if we can see what's on the table and can find something just right for us, and sometimes, we get a bunch of t-shirts and beer coozies that don't really defray the cost of the match much at all.

I guess we're the silly people that come to the match with no expectations except to see our 3-Gun friends, have fun shooting, and try to beat our last score (improve a little)!

Boy, I'm glad there's so many of us, or there wouldn't be enough people to pay for these matches at all. Then there wouldn't be matches for all you sponsored shooters to go to! They're the ones that are really carrying the cost of these big matches on their shoulders!! They pay to play, and don't really get much "payback". But in my experience, they're the most appreciative. They're the ones who ALWAYS write to the sponsors. They go out of their way to thank RO's and reset fast and furious! And they do seem to have a lot of fun!!!

Just cranky Denise!

[dillon]

Denise,

I was a founding board member of "Winter Range", the Single Action Shooting Society's national championships, and served on the BOD for 13 years. Our first year we had about 75 paying participants, and my last year on the board about 500 (now over 700). I have a really good idea of match expenses. We incorporated as a 503c non-profit corporation, and typically gave away $4-6K to various local charities, and could only keep seed money for the following year. It took us 3 years to break even.

I tell you this to show that when I say you put on one of the best 3 gun matches in the country, I have a bit of background on running a major shooting match. I finally suffered from burnout,more to do at work, and greater family demands on my tme. I do cherish the friends I make in Cowboy shooting. The social aspects of that particular sport are only matched by the cameraderie at RM3G, dining on Wong cuisine, and watching you instigate water fights among nuile women wearing tight t-shirts. Thanks to you and JJ, and the Dillon bunch plan to be there in 2012!

[Chills1994]

Jesse back on page 2 wrote:

I guess I am gonna win that bet I made with a friend that said I couldn't piss everyone on this forum off in less than 30 days.

I think you are off to a good start, Jesse.

And, well, hey, I'm sorry...if you're really sponsored by Stag, I have expected more or better behavior from somebody on the fancy shirt squad. Somebody to represent their sponsor better than that. If you're looking to piss people off and still wear that jersey, that just comes off as arrogant and prima donna-ish. The side effect of that being us rank and file D, C, and B class shooters won't want to associate ourselves and/or foot the bill for the prize table for you fancy shirt guys. You'all will be left in the lurch financing the prize tables for yourselves...until the next set of naive newbie shooters comes along that you can rookey doo into attending a strictly by order of finish prize table match.

Trust me, I have been there done that, and without going in so much detail, I quit my sponsorship gig. Lost somebody who I thought was a good friend over it too. And probably a whole bunch of St. Louis area shooters all a-flutter with phone calls, PM's, and emails..."Did you hear that _______?" back and forth between themselves. But, that's just speculation on my part. I'm probably wrong.

[Brian Payne]

I think this thread started with the question "How much would you pay for a match with no prize table?"

For me, I don't get a chance to do live fire practice very much so I use our local matches for my practice. I go to these matches early to help set-up, I do what I can to assist in reset during the match, I have a good time with the fellow shooters, and I get trigger time to help me get better for Major matches. I would gladly pay up to $50.00 for a day of this as long as the stages are enjoyable and challenging.

Major matches are a different case for me. I will gladly pay $300.00 entry for a Major match as long as the match is a good one and has a good prize table. By a "good" match I mean the match has great stages in a location that is enjoyable to hang out in. As an example: My favorite Major 3-gun matches are RM3G, BRM3G, Midwest 3-gun, FB3G, and Ozarks 3-gun. I have been to very few other major matches, but these are the ones I am looking at attending in 2012 and I hope to add the MGM Ironman to the list.

Each of these major matches will cost me between $1000.00 and $2000.00 to attend and shoot depending on how I decide to travel. My favorite way to travel is to take my Motorhome so my wife and two dogs can make a fun vacation of it also.

These matches are chosen for several reasons, #1-Match Directors, #2-Location, #3-Stages, #4-RO's, #5-fellow shooters that I know will be there, and finally #6-the prize table.

I put "Prize Table" last on my order of importance only because at my skill level it is not often that I get to participate at the upper level of the prize table. But the only thing keeping me from being up there is me. I will pay the extra money for a match like this because it offers me "the opportunity" to shoot with the best shooters in the world, and to win something that might help me fund my hobby. I am not a sponsored shooter and being a lowly Chief of Police the funds for this sort of hobby are not unlimited. Any sort of help in the form of prizes is a very real asset for me.

If a match does not allow me this opportunity because there is not a prize table, I have no problem with that and will hold no ill will toward anyone, but I will spend my money at a different match that allows me the chance to win something.

Some comments in this thread almost appear to be condiscending toward anyone who shoots these matches with the hopes of a prize table finish, and that maybe we should just have matches with no prize tables. I am sorry, I don't feel bad about wanting to win prizes, just as I don't feel bad when someone gets a prize when I don't. It gives me something to strive for to make me become a better shooter.

[Benelli Chick]

I agree. I think prize table is important, but, as a match director...sure wish it wasn't! It's the worst part of making the match go! I hate begging for people to give me things!

I look at prize tables, too! I'm not winning much(my own fault, like you said), but I look at what other people win...check out how deep the good stuff goes...whether I can see all the great things donated...I feel good when I do better! There's nothing wrong with wanting to win a prize!

But, I think that not going to a match where you can't win part of your money back...well, just my mindset. I'm not a professional. I'm in this for fun. The prizes are a BONUS for me. But, I'm one of the masses! I know that 3-Gun Nation and a lot of the top guys want to make this sport pay. That's not what I'm really about! I just wish I could make the match director gig pay!

3-gunners are the best, even though we argue like...I can't think of a good analogy!

Oh well! It just would feel nice if a big prize table was seen as a bonus, not a requirement!

[ErichF]

These matches are chosen for several reasons, #1-Match Directors, #2-Location, #3-Stages, #4-RO's, #5-fellow shooters that I know will be there, and finally #6-the prize table.

This is a perfectly reasonable list of priorities and expectations. Personally, I would put #5 and #3 up front.

Some comments in this thread almost appear to be condiscending toward anyone who shoots these matches with the hopes of a prize table finish, and that maybe we should just have matches with no prize tables. I am sorry, I don't feel bad about wanting to win prizes, just as I don't feel bad when someone gets a prize when I don't. It gives me something to strive for to make me become a better shooter.

Being a Chief, I would expect you to have thicker skin than this. What's condescending is for some hot shot to show up at a contest with the attitude "where's the free stuff?" NO ONE suggested that a match should not have any prizes at all. Please use quotes and not paraphrases. If a match has give-aways, I said that's gravy. It shouldn't be the primary reason for one to go and participate.

[Mike P]

As one of the "50%er's" I won't shoot a big match that doesn't have a prize table, by big I mean a 100.00+ entry fee. Not because of any economic reasons, its just that the prize table adds to the hoopla. Its another reason to hang out and BS with other shooters and compare notes on the match/stages.

The top shooters/winners do well because they typically practice the most, work the hardest at becoming better and it is well that they are rewarded for their efforts. As many of you who have had the pleasure of ROing "super squads" know, their courtesy and stage reset times areas good as anyone's, usually better. At least that is the case in my limited experience.

I regularly drive a couple of hours to shoot club matches with or without some sort of prizes, mostly not and glad to do it and help as is possible.

[Brian Payne]

These matches are chosen for several reasons, #1-Match Directors, #2-Location, #3-Stages, #4-RO's, #5-fellow shooters that I know will be there, and finally #6-the prize table.

This is a perfectly reasonable list of priorities and expectations. Personally, I would put #5 and #3 up front.

Some comments in this thread almost appear to be condiscending toward anyone who shoots these matches with the hopes of a prize table finish, and that maybe we should just have matches with no prize tables. I am sorry, I don't feel bad about wanting to win prizes, just as I don't feel bad when someone gets a prize when I don't. It gives me something to strive for to make me become a better shooter.

Being a Chief, I would expect you to have thicker skin than this. What's condescending is for some hot shot to show up at a contest with the attitude "where's the free stuff?" NO ONE suggested that a match should not have any prizes at all. Please use quotes and not paraphrases. If a match has give-aways, I said that's gravy. It shouldn't be the primary reason for one to go and participate.

Sorry ErichF, I hadn't directed my comments at you. Because I don't know you, your comments didn't really even show up on my radar. You have my attention now though!

I will leave the thick skin comment slide. The rest of your comment requires a little explanation. Didn't the original question have to do with "How much would you pay for a match with NO PRIZE TABLE?" I think we can agree that the prize table should not be the most important part of a match, but I do feel it can be important enough that it might sway your decision to go to the match since you might be spending up to or over $2000.00 to go, when you can spend the same money to go to a match that allows for the opportunity to earn some of that back if you do well.

It is obvious that you hate paraphrases, but I just read through your initial post and let me try to get this comment close. "If I did all the work to organize and put on a match, and the only thing you cared about was what free $hit you can get out of me, I'd tell you to keep your precious self home next time". I don't see my attitude as being quite this way, but if you do, I am sorry. The first question I would have for you and your hypothetical match is where will the match be held? 20 miles from my home like the former DPMS Tri-gun Challenge? or 1200 miles away like the RM3G? Location is a huge factor in these matches due to the cost of travel.

I will have to agree with Denise, that the prize table has got to be the biggest pain in the butt for a match director to get figured out. However you do it, there will always be someone that wishes it were done a different way.

[ErichF]

Didn't the original question have to do with "How much would you pay for a match with NO PRIZE TABLE?"

That was the original question, but the conversation did evolve. My comments were basically to the few who thought that going to a match with no prize table was a waste of their time and resources. I counter that with my thinking that the difference in wasted time shouldn't be solely based in the existence of a prize pool.

I think we can agree that the prize table should not be the most important part of a match, but I do feel it can be important enough that it might sway your decision to go to the match since you might be spending up to or over $2000.00 to go, when you can spend the same money to go to a match that allows for the opportunity to earn some of that back if you do well.

I do agree with this point. Given multiple options, I would go for the one that might have some more "gravy". In fact, I have decided to go to one event here in FL over another, equally distant match because they happen to have a new XDm 5.25 in a raffle ticket drawing. All else being equal, I'm going to the gravy, sure.

"If I did all the work to organize and put on a match, and the only thing you cared about was what free $hit you can get out of me, I'd tell you to keep your precious self home next time". I don't see my attitude as being quite this way, but if you do, I am sorry.

Nothing you said specifically warranted that statement I made. My apologies if you thought so. I have been a contest director in my other

"hobby" for 6 years, and the worst part of organizing the contest was begging vendors for the free stuff to give away. In some cases, vendors were very generous, but overall it's a pain. What makes that worse is I get folks, when asking about the event, the first question is, "what's in the raffle?"

The first question I would have for you and your hypothetical match is where will the match be held? 20 miles from my home like the former DPMS Tri-gun Challenge? or 1200 miles away like the RM3G? Location is a huge factor in these matches due to the cost of travel.

I suppose it more relates to how much you are willing to spend based on what the distant matches offer. The prize pool shouldn't be a primary determining factor in whether or not you spend that kind of money, in my opinion. I have made a yearly trip to a National Championship (another hobby from shooting) for five of the past six years from FL to Indiana. Each time I came back with a National Championship trophy and nothing but credit card bills on top of it. In addition to that event, I also drove to Nashville once or twice a year, Huntsville, etc. All for nothing more than a shot at some wood and a great time with friends.

To your question, if I'm planning on a cross-country trip to a match or contest, I've made the decision to go well ahead of even knowing what the prize pool is, just purely due to planning and logistics. Free beer coozies and extra mags don't make a dent in such a financial plan. Likewise, if I'm looking at the match calendar for central FL, and I see two otherwise equal events where one has a great shot at a high-dollar piece of hardware...I'm not going to BS you I'd go to that one.

All, don't take my comments as critical or harsh. I have limited time to write a post sometimes, so I go for the quick bullet that may come off as so, unintentionally.

Ya'll have a great weekend!

Erich

[Kevin Holman]

I'm not really clear on what basis someone would judge another... and attack their reasoning or motivation for attending a competition, regardless of what it is.

To some, it's the friends and relationships.

To some, it's the spirit of competition.

To some, it's the recognition of skill, and dedication.

To some, it's the opportunity to have the most FUN with your clothes on.

To some, it's the ability to test yourself against the best, and see where you stack up.

To some, it's the opportunity to win cool stuff or even money.

To most, it's a combination of multiple or even all.

Where someone stack ranks the above in order of their personal preference, is none of my damned business. Certainly it is not for me to judge or place scorn on them. I am kinda saddened to see that.

I'll just keep doing what I always do. Try and shoot as many major and local matches as I am able to from a financial and time (read marital) perspective. I will keep thanking (read bowing down to) the MD's and RM's. I will try to help them setup and tear down whenever my schedule allows. I will keep writing the sponsors of the matches and show them personal recognition of their support. I will keep trying to buy from those who sponsor the sport whenever I can. And I will DAMN SURE be giddy every time I walk the prize table, and enjoy that part of the game whenever it exists.

[shred]

I don't want to think about how much this IPSC World Shoot is costing, but there's a reason I go-- it's like nothing else in the world. Do that with any match and you'll get shooters, prizes or no. Make it the same-old-same-old and people will make the tradeoffs differently.

I don't know if anybody's posted it yet, but the tough part about sponsors is they want to give product-- that gets written off at MSRP or close to it. Cash donations come straight off the bottom line (or out of the owners pocket, you pick). So a no-prize match gets lots less sponsor love, and at the same time, doesn't save much money on the match expense (assuming the MD isn't plowing a lot of the entry fees into the table)

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Some comments in this thread almost appear to be condiscending toward anyone who shoots these matches with the hopes of a prize table finish, and that maybe we should just have matches with no prize tables. I am sorry, I don't feel bad about wanting to win prizes, just as I don't feel bad when someone gets a prize when I don't. It gives me something to strive for to make me become a better shooter.

+1 Spot on Brian; I agree completely. For those who say the prize table means nothing, feel free to skip it at your next big 3-gun.

As for Denise's comment "What about those in the bottom 50%" - well, that's where I got started in 3-Gun and I'll probably be there again at some point in next 25 years as age takes hold. God bless all 3-Gunners regardless of skill level, but I clawed my way into the top 20-25% by putting in the work; it didn't "just happen". I think the same is true for all who do well in this game. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think it's OK for hard work to be rewarded. For the record, I'm not sponsored and I don't wear a fancy jersey, but I have no problem with those who do.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

RM3G 2011 was my second major match. The 2011 LaRue Multigun being my first. I am there for the sport, friends, camaraderie, and meeting new competitors as my skill set and health issues will keep me in the bottom 50%. And that is not a problem to me. To just shoot at a match with the big named shooters is a thrill in and of itself to me. Seven of the 12 shooters in my squad were sponsored shooters and all treated me like I was an equal. The prize table is a bonus at those major matches. I am fortunate at the local level to be able to shoot every weekend, wife permitting, where there are no prize tables.

[AlamoShooter]

I agree. I think prize table is important, but, as a match director...sure wish it wasn't! It's the worst part of making the match go! I hate begging for people to give me things!

_{I look at prize tables, too! I'm not winning much(my own fault, like you said), but I look at what other people win...check out how deep the good stuff goes...whether I can see all the great things donated...I feel good when I do better! There's nothing wrong with wanting to win a prize!}

_{But, I think that not going to a match where you can't win part of your money back...well, just my mindset. I'm not a professional. I'm in this for fun. The prizes are a BONUS for me. But, I'm one of the masses! I know that 3-Gun Nation and a lot of the top guys want to make this sport pay. That's not what I'm really about! I just wish I could make the match director gig pay!}

_{3-gunners are the best, even though we argue like...I can't think of a good analogy!}

Oh well! It just would feel nice if a big prize table was seen as a bonus, not a requirement!

Their is fewer top match host than there are top shooters, close to same amount of top RO's to top shooters. I don't know for certain how many 50% level shooters travel more than 6,000 miles a year to compete , but I bet it is less than 25% of the shooters at any one event.

Any time a Na-scar fan can take his own car out on a track and run with the top guys = just don't crash and every one wins, and the regular guy would not complain about what the top guy won

I feel & try to act like a guest at any event, and I am gratefully to be accepted as a guest at the stages and especially at the prize table

I feel very guilty if and when I have to sell a gift to buy fule to reach my next event.

Edited October 7, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[mpeltier]

I'm not really clear on what basis someone would judge another... and attack their reasoning or motivation for attending a competition, regardless of what it is.

To some, it's the friends and relationships.

To some, it's the spirit of competition.

To some, it's the recognition of skill, and dedication.

To some, it's the opportunity to have the most FUN with your clothes on.

To some, it's the ability to test yourself against the best, and see where you stack up.

To some, it's the opportunity to win cool stuff or even money.

To most, it's a combination of multiple or even all.

Where someone stack ranks the above in order of their personal preference, is none of my damned business. Certainly it is not for me to judge or place scorn on them. I am kinda saddened to see that.

I'll just keep doing what I always do. Try and shoot as many major and local matches as I am able to from a financial and time (read marital) perspective. I will keep thanking (read bowing down to) the MD's and RM's. I will try to help them setup and tear down whenever my schedule allows. I will keep writing the sponsors of the matches and show them personal recognition of their support. I will keep trying to buy from those who sponsor the sport whenever I can. And I will DAMN SURE be giddy every time I walk the prize table, and enjoy that part of the game whenever it exists.

Good post Kevin, you saved me some typing.

[Chills1994]

Mike P wrote:

.....The top shooters/winners do well because they typically practice the most, work the hardest at becoming better and it is well that they are rewarded for their efforts....

Should they be rewarded for their efforts?

Yes.

Do I want them to do it on my nickel?

No.

You know from Econ 101, that the whole study of economics is based on the belief of a rational person making sound rational decisions. If somebody is that jones'ing for a high zoot gun that could be found on a prize table, it would just be cheaper for them to buy it off their local gunstore...versus sinking all that money into ammo, targets, timers, gas to and from the range for practice, etc.

IDPA does random draw only, and there are plenty of those major IDPA matches that sell out completely.

Throw us D, C, and B class shooters a bone, would ya?

[Mike P]

Mike P wrote:

.....The top shooters/winners do well because they typically practice the most, work the hardest at becoming better and it is well that they are rewarded for their efforts....

Should they be rewarded for their efforts?

Yes.

Do I want them to do it on my nickel?

No.

You know from Econ 101, that the whole study of economics is based on the belief of a rational person making sound rational decisions. If somebody is that jones'ing for a high zoot gun that could be found on a prize table, it would just be cheaper for them to buy it off their local gunstore...versus sinking all that money into ammo, targets, timers, gas to and from the range for practice, etc.

IDPA does random draw only, and there are plenty of those major IDPA matches that sell out completely.

Throw us D, C, and B class shooters a bone, would ya?

I don't look at it as providing anything but a chance to sort who the best shooter is that day.

I look at shooting matches in much the same way as gaming in a casino, in my case the odds are not good that I'll win, people who go a lot, or know the games well have much better odds of winnning. Sometimes though you can get lucky, and if you go play enough, you can get lucky more often. I wouldn't want to go play cards for 3 days and see the pot go to a person with the losing hand.

The only gun I ever won was by random draw at an IDPA major in 2001 I think and I doubt if by today's standards I'd even be a "B" class shooter.

3-gun is just something I like to do, playing for something just makes it more fun IMO.

[s_gorilla45]

I'm in the $50 to $100/day crowd. I don't shoot many major matches mainly for the cost but I also don't expect to take anything home from those that I do shoot. What I do enjoy is being there for the prize table. Order of finish or random draw is just as much fun for me. What I don't agree with is shooters taking off and still expecting to receive their prizes. I understand that we are all busy and want to race home after the match but for most shooters that is the only time we get to see the top shooters. I don't think an extra hour or two out of the day to show the match directors and sponsors the respect of being there to accept your prizes is asking a whole lot.