Dropping an unloaded firearm

[Nik Habicht]

Unfortunately this is one of those situations that really is in the eye and opinion of the RO, CRO and RM.

My opinion is if they react in such a way that they stop the gun from coming out of the holster and do nothing but keep it pinned in place until the RO can retrieve it, NO DQ as long as it was not their hand pinning it in place.

You can not back that opinion up with a rule though.

Sure, I can. I just need to look at 10.5.14 -- which is the rule that deals with dropped firearms.....

Just because my reading of the rule doesn't match yours, doesn't automatically make me wrong.....

And there is the can of worms that this definition would create if it was indeed intended to allow for a gun to be pinned. I am not about to poll witnesses or ask the shooter about a DQ event. Thats not the way we do things.

While I won't poll witnesses (implication: let them cast a vote, and then use the tally to make a decision), I see no problem when hearing of "potential safety issue" in talking to the stage staff, the competitor and any witnesses. I believe it to be part of the investigation that is required to make or uphold/overturn the call. The sport and all of the competitors in the match deserve no less.....

[ima45dv8]

Now onto the next point -- RE: "private smoke-filled back-room decisions"

I find that statement to be truly offensive, and believe that you owe every member of the (volunteer, just like you and me) Instructor Corps an apology for that. The reality of the process is that the instructor corps held a training conference, discussed and clarified some issues, that those issues were then brought to the Board of Directors by DNROI, apparently approved and then included in the next printing of the rulebook. That's hardly a nefarious, secretive or underhanded process. I don't believe that you're so naive as to not see the implications of that particular word choice....

Could NROI do a better job getting the word out to all certified range officers? Yep.

The current forum doesn't work. No one uses it, and perhaps more importantly, the Director of NROI doesn't use it to disseminate any information. I'm thinking that might fall into his area of responsibility, but then I'm not on the Board of Directors.....

That a substantive change can be made to safety-related rules in our organization in a meeting that to my knowledge is not open to the general membership, and seemingly no attempt is made to communicate those changes to the members of NROI, I find equally distasteful.

George states, with your unfailing support, the this "new" rule is incorporated in the new rulebook (July 2010). It is not. The glossary definitions for a "Dropped Gun" and "Handling" are clear as written. A Dropped Gun is a DQ, "....even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair". Similarly, Handling ("...manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible") makes no exceptions based upon which part of the body does the manipulation or holding. As written, dropping a gun and trapping it against the body with some portion of the body other than the hand is still a DQ. That some may be teaching otherwise doesn't negate what is written.

But now we have second-hand accounts that this is exactly what is being taught to new ROs with no mention of it on USPSA.org; most notably absent from the section titled Rulings. Will the stink I and others have raised possible incite a new ruling to be published allowing these exact exemptions? Maybe... I hope it doesn't because exclaiming The King Has No Clothes shouldn't be the basis for such a change.

Be as offended as you wish. You are no more so than I.

[Singlestack]

Unfortunately this is one of those situations that really is in the eye and opinion of the RO, CRO and RM.

My opinion is if they react in such a way that they stop the gun from coming out of the holster and do nothing but keep it pinned in place until the RO can retrieve it, NO DQ as long as it was not their hand pinning it in place.

You can not back that opinion up with a rule though.

Sure, I can. I just need to look at 10.5.14 -- which is the rule that deals with dropped firearms.....

Just because my reading of the rule doesn't match yours, doesn't automatically make me wrong.....

And there is the can of worms that this definition would create if it was indeed intended to allow for a gun to be pinned. I am not about to poll witnesses or ask the shooter about a DQ event. Thats not the way we do things.

While I won't poll witnesses (implication: let them cast a vote, and then use the tally to make a decision), I see no problem when hearing of "potential safety issue" in talking to the stage staff, the competitor and any witnesses. I believe it to be part of the investigation that is required to make or uphold/overturn the call. The sport and all of the competitors in the match deserve no less.....

Our reading of 10.5.14 is the same. Where we differ is the reading of the definition of "Handling". The definition of "Handling", as it is written, can only be read one way.

OK, a competitor is standing away from any stages with his gun pinned against his leg with his arm. No Match Staff witnessed him/her getting in this position but 20 other competitors did. You come along and he/her asks for your assistance. Are you going to ask any questions? If so, please give me precedence for this approach. Where else in the rule book does the RO ask the competitor or any non-match staff if he commited a DQ offence?

An RO can only call what he sees. We have all had by-standers say to us after running a shooter "I saw him break the 180". The only response to that is "I didn't".

The Sport and all of the competitors deserve consistancy. What if one of the by-standers says "I saw him use his hand!"?

Where is the value added by this change? What is the problem it solved? The only way I would incorperate this change is a ruling from DNROI. The definition of "Handling" is very clear.

[Nik Habicht]

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook -- when it comes to talking to competitors. Competitors or ROs are specifically permitted to run a call up the chain of officials -- but a match official isn't allowed to talk to anyone? Huh?

I've had shooter's own up to disqualifying offenses before -- when I caught a glimpse of something, but not enough to be sure. I'm entitled to ask the question. Honorable competitors will tell the truth -- and the answer sometimes dictates a DQ.

In your example -- I'd secure the gun first and then start by asking the competitor what happened. Then we'd go from there.....

[Poppa Bear]

There is no single one size fits all answer here. This entire thread is based upon RO opinion and observation. What should not happen is an across the board blanket pardon for anyone who catches their gun by pinning it against their body. There should not be an across the board DQ for anyone that pins one either. There are to many factors that have to be taken into account. Is the shooter standing next to a prop that might have snagged it? Did two competitors collide knocking one loose? Is the shooter standing by himself away from anything capable of snagging the gun? All factors that need to be taken into account to try and make an informed decision.

Did the shooter break the 180? RO says yes, CRO says no, Witnesses are split 50/50. How do you decide? I know for me the first thing I will ask is where was the shooter standing and what target was he engaging. That way I at least know if it is even possible for the shooter to have broken the 180. This same line of thought crosses into 'Dropped guns". What does the physical evidence if any say to confirm or deny how the dropped gun happened. Where is the gun pinned? Partially still in its holster? Stuck between the shooter and a prop, chair, wall, .... Perfect example here. Shooter sits down, gun gets knocked loose and gets stuck between the shooters leg and whatever they are sitting on. Are you going to DQ them?? I'm not.

[ima45dv8]

There is no single one size fits all answer here. This entire thread is based upon RO opinion and observation. What should not happen is an across the board blanket pardon for anyone who catches their gun by pinning it against their body. There should not be an across the board DQ for anyone that pins one either. There are to many factors that have to be taken into account. Is the shooter standing next to a prop that might have snagged it? Did two competitors collide knocking one loose? Is the shooter standing by himself away from anything capable of snagging the gun? All factors that need to be taken into account to try and make an informed decision.

Perhaps we are reading two different rulebooks. Mine is very specific that a dropped gun is a DQ, it clearly defines what a dropped gun is, and what handling is. It makes no exceptions based on the part of the body used to 'trap' the falling gun, not does it suggest that two shooters colliding or someone running into a prop is an extenuating circumstance.

Did the shooter break the 180? RO says yes, CRO says no, Witnesses are split 50/50. How do you decide? I know for me the first thing I will ask is where was the shooter standing and what target was he engaging. That way I at least know if it is even possible for the shooter to have broken the 180. This same line of thought crosses into 'Dropped guns". What does the physical evidence if any say to confirm or deny how the dropped gun happened.

Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. No matter how a gun is dropped, it is a dropped gun.

Where is the gun pinned? Partially still in its holster? Stuck between the shooter and a prop, chair, wall, .... Perfect example here. Shooter sits down, gun gets knocked loose and gets stuck between the shooters leg and whatever they are sitting on. Are you going to DQ them?? I'm not.

Any consideration of how and where the gun is pinned/trapped is a discussion noticeably absent from the rulebook. Trying to qualify the degree of the offense is an interesting exercise over lunch after the match, but it doesn't discount that the offense has occurred. There simply isn't language in the governing rules to permit "grading" of DQ's.

The seated shooter with a gun between his leg and the seat, that's a dropped gun and that's a DQ that I will forced to call (rule to be cited dependant upon whether it occurs during a CoF or not).

[Singlestack]

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook {snip}

Yes, of course.

That's where my position comes from.

[Nik Habicht]

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook {snip}

Yes, of course.

That's where my position comes from.

O.K. if the rulebook is the only thing we need, time to abolish all RO/RM classes..... :devil:

What was I thinking, attending 2.5 of them so far.....

[Singlestack]

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook {snip}

Yes, of course.

That's where my position comes from.

O.K. if the rulebook is the only thing we need, time to abolish all RO/RM classes..... :devil:

What was I thinking, attending 2.5 of them so far.....

There would not be this problem if the RO class was being taught the rule book...

I've attended 2 myself, one just last year add one 10 years ago.

So what are you proposing here? We do away with the rule book and rely on RO classes and memory?

[Nik Habicht]

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook {snip}

Yes, of course.

That's where my position comes from.

O.K. if the rulebook is the only thing we need, time to abolish all RO/RM classes..... :devil:

What was I thinking, attending 2.5 of them so far.....

There would not be this problem if the RO class was being taught the rule book...

I've attended 2 myself, one just last year add one 10 years ago.

So what are you proposing here? We do away with the rule book and rely on RO classes and memory?

No, I'm suggesting that you need both the rulebook and instruction as to what the rules mean and how to apply them.....

What I'm hearing you say is "I don't need to confer with anyone about either the facts of any incident, or about the clarification of any rule." I'm hoping you're playing devil's advocate.....

As far as relying on memory goes -- that's actually why I'm an advocate of taking another class when one gets an opportunity -- so that one doesn't have to rely on fading memory to recall the class content.....

[Singlestack]

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook {snip}

Yes, of course.

That's where my position comes from.

O.K. if the rulebook is the only thing we need, time to abolish all RO/RM classes..... :devil:

What was I thinking, attending 2.5 of them so far.....

There would not be this problem if the RO class was being taught the rule book...

I've attended 2 myself, one just last year add one 10 years ago.

So what are you proposing here? We do away with the rule book and rely on RO classes and memory?

No, I'm suggesting that you need both the rulebook and instruction as to what the rules mean and how to apply them.....

What I'm hearing you say is "I don't need to confer with anyone about either the facts of any incident, or about the clarification of any rule." I'm hoping you're playing devil's advocate.....

What I'm hearing you say is: "I'm trying to change the subject and not answer the questions I don't have an answer to."

[Poppa Bear]

There is no single one size fits all answer here. This entire thread is based upon RO opinion and observation. What should not happen is an across the board blanket pardon for anyone who catches their gun by pinning it against their body. There should not be an across the board DQ for anyone that pins one either. There are to many factors that have to be taken into account. Is the shooter standing next to a prop that might have snagged it? Did two competitors collide knocking one loose? Is the shooter standing by himself away from anything capable of snagging the gun? All factors that need to be taken into account to try and make an informed decision.

Perhaps we are reading two different rulebooks. Mine is very specific that a dropped gun is a DQ, it clearly defines what a dropped gun is, and what handling is. It makes no exceptions based on the part of the body used to 'trap' the falling gun, not does it suggest that two shooters colliding or someone running into a prop is an extenuating circumstance.

Did the shooter break the 180? RO says yes, CRO says no, Witnesses are split 50/50. How do you decide? I know for me the first thing I will ask is where was the shooter standing and what target was he engaging. That way I at least know if it is even possible for the shooter to have broken the 180. This same line of thought crosses into 'Dropped guns". What does the physical evidence if any say to confirm or deny how the dropped gun happened.

Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. No matter how a gun is dropped, it is a dropped gun.

Where is the gun pinned? Partially still in its holster? Stuck between the shooter and a prop, chair, wall, .... Perfect example here. Shooter sits down, gun gets knocked loose and gets stuck between the shooters leg and whatever they are sitting on. Are you going to DQ them?? I'm not.

Any consideration of how and where the gun is pinned/trapped is a discussion noticeably absent from the rulebook. Trying to qualify the degree of the offense is an interesting exercise over lunch after the match, but it doesn't discount that the offense has occurred. There simply isn't language in the governing rules to permit "grading" of DQ's.

The seated shooter with a gun between his leg and the seat, that's a dropped gun and that's a DQ that I will forced to call (rule to be cited dependant upon whether it occurs during a CoF or not).

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be

retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing

the handgun, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag

or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside

of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who

retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

[sperman]

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

[aztecdriver]

[ post removed ]

My sarcasm in my response wasn't evident.

Edited July 6, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Leftylivesmatter]

This happened to me last Saturday. I finished shooting the last stage of our local match. I showed clear, hammer down and holstered. I engaged the lock on my (new) Double Alpha race holster. RIC was announced by the RO. I turned to leave the stage and my pistol fell to the ground. I then said, "Stop. RO I have dropped my gun." She had everyone clear the COF. While she was clearing the COF I tightened the adjustment screw on the holster and pulled the cam back to the up postion. She then picked up my pistol, checked it for clear, put the hammer down, and handed it to me. I checked it for clear, put hammer down, and holstered (triple checking it was locked in).

I thought I was DQ'ed for sure. The CRO was also on our stage and informed me that I was very lucky she had call RIC before the gun fell and that I was not DQ'ed.

I have been running this holster for 3 months now without a problem. The locking cam on the Double Alpha will sometimes slide to the bottom locked postion after running the COF. I holstered on top of the cam and engaged the lock so I thought it was in safely. Lesson learned very cheaply!

[gng4life]

This happened to me last Saturday. I finished shooting the last stage of our local match. I showed clear, hammer down and holstered. I engaged the lock on my (new) Double Alpha race holster. RIC was announced by the RO. I turned to leave the stage and my pistol fell to the ground. I then said, "Stop. RO I have dropped my gun." She had everyone clear the COF. While she was clearing the COF I tightened the adjustment screw on the holster and pulled the cam back to the up postion. She then picked up my pistol, checked it for clear, put the hammer down, and handed it to me. I checked it for clear, put hammer down, and holstered (triple checking it was locked in).

I thought I was DQ'ed for sure. The CRO was also on our stage and informed me that I was very lucky she had call RIC before the gun fell and that I was not DQ'ed.

I have been running this holster for 3 months now without a problem. The locking cam on the Double Alpha will sometimes slide to the bottom locked postion after running the COF. I holstered on top of the cam and engaged the lock so I thought it was in safely. Lesson learned very cheaply!

You said, "...sometimes slide to the bottom..." - how many times has this happened? I have been running a DAA RM for about 6 months now and I haven't seen it. How long was it after the RIC until it fell? Thanks

[Leftylivesmatter]

This happened to me last Saturday. I finished shooting the last stage of our local match. I showed clear, hammer down and holstered. I engaged the lock on my (new) Double Alpha race holster. RIC was announced by the RO. I turned to leave the stage and my pistol fell to the ground. I then said, "Stop. RO I have dropped my gun." She had everyone clear the COF. While she was clearing the COF I tightened the adjustment screw on the holster and pulled the cam back to the up postion. She then picked up my pistol, checked it for clear, put the hammer down, and handed it to me. I checked it for clear, put hammer down, and holstered (triple checking it was locked in).

I thought I was DQ'ed for sure. The CRO was also on our stage and informed me that I was very lucky she had call RIC before the gun fell and that I was not DQ'ed.

I have been running this holster for 3 months now without a problem. The locking cam on the Double Alpha will sometimes slide to the bottom locked postion after running the COF. I holstered on top of the cam and engaged the lock so I thought it was in safely. Lesson learned very cheaply!

You said, "...sometimes slide to the bottom..." - how many times has this happened? I have been running a DAA RM for about 6 months now and I haven't seen it. How long was it after the RIC until it fell? Thanks

Within 5 seconds. It has slide down about 3 times. A friend told me he set the adjustment screw and put Loctite on it. I am going to look into that.

[Flexmoney]

[edit to add]

...You guys are doing fine showing how smart people can have legitimate differences of opinions. That is why arbitration exists.

Good point, Jay.

I hope everybody realizes that we all care about, and work hard for, this sport.

John,

you continue to focus on the rulebook {snip}

Yes, of course.

That's where my position comes from.

O.K. if the rulebook is the only thing we need, time to abolish all RO/RM classes..... :devil:

What was I thinking, attending 2.5 of them so far.....

Teachings in the classes need to be from the book...not from "we".

This thread is an example of that.

[Singlestack]

Dang Flex, You killed the conversation.

[crickets chirping]

[mactiger]

I'll make a little noise here.

First, I'd like to state that at no time do we (the NROI Instructor Corps) make decisions in a secret room, or in a vacuum, or under a double dome of silence. And never with the intent of hiding things from the membership of USPSA. Those of you who know me should know better.

We discuss issues with rules, rulings, (a lot of which we don't always agree with), and how we want to cover those items in class. We also attempt to get on the same page regarding what we teach in the seminars in general. Having said this, sometimes things fall through the cracks. We take notes, publish minutes, etc., but on occasion those decisions, some of which should be published as rulings or interpretations, fall through the cracks.

After discussing the "trapping" issue with the instructor group, reviewing minutes,raw notes, and email discussions, it's obvious that this was one of those times. The general discussion was whether we wanted to DQ a competitor who, outside the course of fire, dislodged or dropped his gun and through a natural reaction, trapped the gun before it fell all the way to wherever it would have ended up. Not grabbed it with his hand, but perhaps caught it with his leg, part of the holster, forearm, foot--anything but his hand. Grabbing it with any part of the hand, we agreed, was still a DQ for unsupervised gun handling. Trapping it (which, in some odd instances could happen naturally), we decided was not grounds for a DQ, as long as the competitor notified the RO who then retrieved the gun. And, he didn't touch it with his hand.

IMO, and my opinion only, this is the right way to handle this. As Range Officers, we do not want to get into the "gotcha" business, nor should we be looking for ways or reasons to DQ people. We all have problems from time to time, and there are penalties for those times.

Why this wasn't made public, I cannot say, and I won't speculate. It wasn't intended to be taught in secret and disseminated by teaspoons; all I can say is that we are all busy and it simply didn't make the presses, until here, unfortunately.

Bottom line: dropping your gun in a course of fire is still a DQ, no matter what. Dropped means falling/under the influence of gravity. Picking it up is another DQ citation (but I don't guess you can get DQ'd twice.) Dropping your gun outside a course of fire is not a DQ, as long as you don't handle it. (Touch it with your hand.) Trapping it somehow is acceptable, but an RO must still retrieve it.

Again, this is simply a report. It is not an official ruling or interpretation, and I realize that it may mean nothing to many of you who feel that any means of keeping the gun from falling is "handling". I believe that at some point in the near future, there will be an official ruling on this.

[spanky]

I can just see a competitor standing there calling for help because his gun is trapped between his forearm and his thigh.

Edited July 15, 2011 by spanky

[Singlestack]

This is crazy.

It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way.

[Dan Hefta]

This is crazy.

It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way.

I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me.

[Corey]

My buddy learned a lesson about trying to catch a dropped gun...still has the .45 cal bullet hole in his bedroom wall as a reminder...

[Singlestack]

This is crazy.

It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way.

I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me.

There is no such thing as an "unloaded gun".