dminor Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Mig, I hate to burst your bubble, but the Kansas City USPSA BOD meeting was two weeks ago, not this weekend. The date of the meeting was April 24th and 25th. I observed the meeting all day Sat. and part of the morning Sun. with my Area 3 Director, Arnie Christianson. I see there are no minutes up on the USPSA members page for this meeting as of yet. I think you should be concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Dminor, Just posting what Mike V. sent to me dated 05/07/04. Yes, I'm still very concern ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 For those interested in working this, it sounds like there is still a staff shortage. I through my name in the hat yesterday, and am trying to work things out with work today..... Plus my wife is going to absolutely kick my ass as I'll be gone 4 days for the Summer Blast, 4 days for the Buckeye Blast, and then 5 days for the 3 Gun, all on consecutive weekends..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prh Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Troy, I received a letter with my assignment on 5/1/04. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 just got email from monte...he confirms round count to be approx: 148 rifle 129 pistol 123 birdshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 whoops...let me finish the last post: 148 rifle 129 pistol 123 birdshot 14 slug 15 stages (2 single gun & 13 multi-gun). stages MAY be posted on uspsa site in a week or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Any round count for Manual Rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 You may want to e-mail Mike Voigt on this directly as I believe that he is in charge of this part of the match. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 15 stages (2 single gun & 13 multi-gun). I was under the impression that 3 stages were MOR and the remaining 12 were the actual 3-gun. I wonder how or if they are doing a multi-gun MOR stage? Or are we doing 13 stages and the MOR is now only 2 stages? I guess we'll find out eventually... Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 MOR is a seperate match. There are 15 stages as part of the Nationals. The single gun stages will be one shotgun and one rifle. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Thanks Rich, ya beat me to it. Shake hands with a late sleeper 2 single gun stages and 13 multi-gun stages, Yowza!! Monte wasn’t joking when he told me back in January that it was gonna be all, or almost all multi-gun with a lot of stages using all 3, not just maybe one chintzy stage with all three. Looks like it will be a good one folks! If anyone still has any worries, look at what can be pulled off with 2 weeks total of preparation (What I Like Forum, Private Parties With Good Food & Music thread). It‘s all a position folks, and if you aren’t involved you don’t actually know for sure, you either think it’s fine, or you don’t. But it usually has little to do with what the folks doing the work know, and I know the folks doing the work, they won’t let us down BTW, what’s the worry about publishing the stages anyway, it’s not like you are gonna go setup and practice em‘ anyway, is it? And ifn’ ya’ say that we all need to work on the moves the published stages require, I say, I thought IPSC was supposed to be kinda surprise as far as stage preparation goes. Sheeesh! What’s the deal anyway? -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 Multi-gun matches are illegal under the current, 14th Edition USPSA Rule Book. See 6.1.3 and 6.1.4. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Multi-gun matches are illegal under the current, 14th Edition USPSA Rule Book. See 6.1.3 and 6.1.4.Troy Troy, I hate it when you always bring up that 'RULE thing' again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Dayum... are there slots still left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 When I talked to Sedro on Monday about something else they said there were still lots of slots left for the 3-Gun match. They are hurting for match staff too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 They are hurting for match staff too. I was talking to one of our local RO's that has signed on for the match and he went through the staff list with me. Two things..... while I don't know all the RO's on staff, I do know the majority of the CRO's and from the names I remember, they are all top flight seasoned Nationals staff. Second, it did seem like we are 'a little lite' on staff, but not as lite as I had heard. If anyone wants to gain some Nationals experience, I certainly would not discourage you from putting an application in. OTOH, I do think we will be fine on staffing (I just hope that isn't wishful thinking)....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 As Troy pointed out, multi-gun stages are illegal under the current edition of the USPSA rulebook. Since the next edition of the rulebook hasn't been released yet, it would be irresponsible and reprehensible for the sanctioning organization (USPSA) to disregard its own rulebook for the National 3 Gun Championship. Does this indicate this National championship would be a non-sanctioned tournament? I surely hope not. Most, if not all, of the major matches and tournaments have always published the courses of fire. That information should be made available the competitors as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Lets go Olympic, and call it the 3-gun national exhibition match. That way the "rules" can catch up latter. Or better yet, those that are offended, by the lack of a rule book, could stay home, and those that don't mind could shoot it. I seriously doubt that they will throw out the "safety" rules and as long as that is there it will be just fine. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hey Kurt, Safety is rule #1 for sure, the rest of it is for the lawyers BTW, I hope you are going to shoot the US3G. I missed meeting you at the RM3G last year and hope to make amends at the US3G, or the JP3G this year. First and last beer is on me. Food is good at the Nugget and they have Anchor Steam at the Oyster bar. Regards, -- Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Multi-gun matches are illegal under the current, 14th Edition USPSA Rule Book. See 6.1.3 and 6.1.4. This is one of the many PISTOL rules that are impeding the 3-Gun Nationals from progressing to the level of the other National 3-Gun matches. This rule is gone for the Nationals. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 Multi-gun matches are illegal under the current, 14th Edition USPSA Rule Book. See 6.1.3 and 6.1.4. This is one of the many PISTOL rules that are impeding the 3-Gun Nationals from progressing to the level of the other National 3-Gun matches. This rule is gone for the Nationals. Rich If you'll look at the first paragraph of Section 12 in the current rule book, page 71, you'll find that those rules apply to long gun competition as well. Nobody can just "throw out" the rulebook because it doesn't fit their plans, and that's my point. If you don't use all the rules, not just the safety rules, then you don't have a USPSA match. While that's fine for other disciplines and organizations, it should not be the case for a match billed as the USPSA 3 Gun National Championship. In addition, multi gun stages/matches are also specifically prohibited under the new IPSC rules, in pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Here's one problem with ignoring rules, as long as "nobody cares". Say this goes on at a local level. Then, some of those local shooters go to a match that's sanctioned, and where the USPSA rules are applied fairly and equitably to all competitors. Somebody does something that's legal at home, but it costs them a penalty or worse, a DQ. Instantly, we're back to the "us vs. them" mindset that was discussed in another thread on this forum, because of ignorance of, and ignoring, the rules. NROI has worked hard to get rid of that kind of thinking, and one of the best ways to eliminate it is to get everybody on the same page, rules-wise. Here's another: suppose that it was just "declared" that multi gun stages were legal; the rules would be ignored. Somebody has a safety problem, or doesn't follow the course description, shoots the wrong targets with the wrong gun, etc. Who will then apply either a penalty or a DQ, and what will they use to back that call? With no rules for reference, you have something similar to Calvin ball, where the competitors and referees make up the rules as they go. How would you ensure that the RO's from one stage to another are even making the same calls, if there are no rules to reference? I'm aware that the BOD is working on multi gun match rules, and they may be effective in time for the match. If that's the case, then the multi gun match part of the tournament should be legal. I do think they are cutting it pretty close, though. I've read two drafts of these rules. They aren't perfect and will take some tweaking as time goes by, but I think they'll be a giant leap forward in bringing USPSA up to speed with other 3 Gun organizations. The key question is this: will they be in effect in time for the 3 Gun Nationals or not? If not, then I stand by my original statement: 6.1.3 and 6.1.4 apply, and the match is not legal. I haven't found anything in either the bylaws or the rulebook that would allow them to be "gone" for the Nationals. Sorry, Richard. No rules, no game. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I would venture to say then too, that if there are zero multi-gun stages at this match, there will be more than a few withdrawls from the match. This is a huge selling point of the match and, for me there is no reason to shoot a 3-gun match, where there are zero multi-gun stages. If these rules are in place, I will withdrawl from the 3GN as well as not work as a RO. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 Well, that would be your decision, of course. Although I believe that you can have a challenging and fun 3 Gun match without multi-gun stages, they are fun to shoot, and I know they are a selling point for the match. I also think that if USPSA is going to continue to promote 3 Gun and try to grow that aspect of the sport, we'll have to court shooters away from the other long gun organizations by catering to the desires of the competitors. I'm not trying to say that the match won't happen. In fact, I think it would be a disaster if it didn't happen, or was run against the rules--I can't figure out which would be worse right now. I am trying to point out that there are rules that must be followed in any circumstance, and that they can't be "arm waved" away, just because they are inconvenient. And, that I think the announcement for virtually an all multi-gun 3GN was a tad "premature", given the current state of the rules. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 The rule having to do with Multi-gun stages not being allowed can be dealt with by ignoring it and that will not effect any other rules. I see no reason the silly Multi-gun prohibition can’t be ignored while still adhering to the “entire” rest of the rules structure. No issues here for anyone, anywhere and at anytime IMHO. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I agree with Troy on this one. The rules need to be followed or its not a USPSA match. How can it be sanctioned if it ignores the rule book? Clearly, it is a rule which needs to be changed and quick. This is the sort of thing that holds USPSA 3 Gun back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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