What do you see?

[Singlestack]

cool video, part of it could be your grip, your weakhand thumb is not even touching the frame.

that's right! seeing that I don't have a thumbrest, best place would be to place it on the scope mount correct?

No. The best place for it is on top of your weak hand index finger not touching the gun at all.

[robot]

No. The best place for it is on top of your weak hand index finger not touching the gun at all.

hmm that's exactly what I'm doing right now, so the thumb stays straight and away from the frame right?

[usmc1974]

cool video, part of it could be your grip, your weakhand thumb is not even touching the frame.

that's right! seeing that I don't have a thumbrest, best place would be to place it on the scope mount correct?

Yes, anything to help stabilize the gun. I was told by an old GM to keep the strong hand and trigger finger more relaxed, use the weak hand to grip the weapon.

[Mad Scientist]

I speek form 10 years of exsperience in shooting open guns and building 10 world champion pistols. not some numbers on a graph somewhere.Thia is a very opininated forum.It is exspected that every one be allowed to exspress theirs . I respect your right to say what you feel . I shoot open guns every single day. I shot 6 diferent guns this week alone.

slower powders by nature take longer to burn thus the term slower .slower burn would net slower presure build and thus a slower peek.the physics support the statment .

neutral grip means shooting without forward or latteral presure. forward push at the wrist will push the gun down once the slide motion changes direction.

Aslo the OP stated he was using n105 so I dont see what your analasis shows us.I was talking about burn rate not bullet speed.

As for grip I speek from my own exsperiences and the way I build a gun. BE is right on the money "Death grip no good" I went back and read the posts from the grip thread they are basicaly saying the same thing in a different way. I beileive I origionaly said that it looks like the OP had a strangle hold on the gun and was pushing the gun. and that an open gun was ment to be shoot from a neutral grip. I stand by that statment.

Well, I'd been shooting Open guns for ten years when you started shooting them Since you don't have your name or USPSA member number in your profile, what sort of level are you shooting Open guns at now?

Your understanding of how powders burns is incorrect/incomplete. I used both the OP's N105 load and an equivalent N350 load for comparison, and N105 reaches it's Pmax (peak pressure) earlier than N350, and we can all probably agree N350 is "faster" than N105. So, the pressure isn't necessarily building slower with N105 just because it's a "slower" powder...it just doesn't work that way (at least not consistently). In short, the "slower" powder reached its peak pressure faster.

If the OP was pushing the gun forward, it would have moved forward a whole bunch when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber....that didn't happen. On the contrary, it's obvious that the gun is moving around in his hand, and that movement isn't being countered by anything. Heck, look at the bottom two fingers on his support (left) hand...they bounce around, and you can see the daylight increase and decrease as the gun moves around, and his hand vibrates/shakes....that's far from a death grip, and not even "firm"...which is why the gun is flipping then diving.

Nobody said a death grip was good, but if you noticed, XRe mentioned going to almost 100% with the left hand under certain circumstances, and even Brian has said (in several threads) that a seriously firm grip was about right.

My current clasification level is @ 4 percent behind yours with my top clasifier @ 1.5 percent higher than your highest. so that is a negeted point.skill levels are about the same for now.

To return the question how many open guns have you built ? what is your back groud other than a shooter??

I looked at alot of data in the last few days and think that if you go back to your program the pressure data will show that for equal charge weights of powdrers the quicker powders will peak quicker.comparing apples to apples.i can scew data to make my point as much as the next guy.

That is besides the point the original argument that I made was that a quicker powder will peak faster . You must have read into that presure some where . quicker powders will make the slide move quicker .the slide will have more velocity .and thus the case will hit the ejector post with more athority. making for a varience in load spread less evident. n105 is very slow evident by the unburnt powder flakes coming from the gun.

in the grip department look very closely at the statement that I made right after the statement that open guns are designed to be shot from a neutral grip. I said that you must give the gun a firm platform wall for the gun to operate apon. Again I can pick words out of context to make an argument. Brian alos stated in the post you refer to that its much like griping a hammer. you start hammering all day long with your "seriouly firm 100% grip and befor you know it you will be putting input into the hammer and missing the nail from fatigue.

Newtons laws of phisics state that for every action there is an equal and opisite reaction . I asume that this doesnot applie to a fire arm. the point being that imput in the form of a biased grip at the wrist will have the opsite effect when the slide inevitable changes direction .other wise the shooter would have to be able to change his bias.in less than .002sec . Not humanly posible .I think you are confused with a strangle hold and a pushing gun and a firmly well platformed gun with no shooter bias. the thing the video doesnt show is foot placement .ellbow posture . back attitude etc .strangle holds limit the shooters ability to manipulate the trigger. exsess tension in the arms translates to the sholders and back and make transitions harder.not to mention that the lactic acid build up will make the muscles less responsive to the nervous systems input.

I find that my opininated view point works for me so the result is my statements can not therforebe "untrue" In the end you give your opinions and I give mine take them for what their worth. At least my opinions are educated but still that opinion

Edited May 30, 2011 by Mad Scientist

[G-ManBart]

I am at 82 percent with my top clasifier at92 percent what level are you at.

I'm just an M at 88.76% as of the current update....not that I'm a great classifier shooter, by any stretch of the imagination.

[G-ManBart]

No. The best place for it is on top of your weak hand index finger not touching the gun at all.

hmm that's exactly what I'm doing right now, so the thumb stays straight and away from the frame right?

I don't think it hurts anything to have your support (think positive, there is no "weak") thumb lightly touching the scope mount.

This is just one more thing to experiment with. Try your thumb in several positions, shoot some bill drills, or timing drills, and see how the gun reacts/tracks....that means more than what just happens to work for someone else. R,

[usmc1974]

I am by no means a GM or even 82% but, that is what I saw and was told. It makes sence the reason for two hand hold is to stabilize the weapon. I put my weak thumb againest the frame and scopemount.

[Singlestack]

No. The best place for it is on top of your weak hand index finger not touching the gun at all.

hmm that's exactly what I'm doing right now, so the thumb stays straight and away from the frame right?

That's what works best IMO. Try just shooting at a berm without aiming at anything. Watch the dot tracking. Try it with the thumb touching and without.

You do not need your thumb to "control" recoil.

(in case it matters, I'm at 82% too )

[Chris iliff]

Thumb touching frame? You don't want your thumbs exerting any kind of pressure on the gun. Mine just kinda point at the target, no pressure of any kind. My thumbs are as relaxed as I can get them. But ymmv.

Edited May 31, 2011 by fourtrax

[Mad Scientist]

Thumb touching frame? You don't want your thumbs exerting any kind of pressure on the gun. Mine just kinda point at the target, no pressure of any kind. My thumbs are as relaxed as I can get them. But ymmv.

perfect example of neutrality!!

[G-ManBart]

My current clasification level is @ 4 percent behind yours with my top clasifier @ 1.5 percent higher than your highest. so that is a negeted point.skill levels are about the same for now.

To return the question how many open guns have you built ? what is your back groud other than a shooter??

I looked at alot of data in the last few days and think that if you go back to your program the pressure data will show that for equal charge weights of powdrers the quicker powders will peak quicker.comparing apples to apples.i can scew data to make my point as much as the next guy. We don't use equal charge weights with different powders, so this isn't a valid argument. If you use N105 and N350 to push the bullet the same speed, the peak pressure happens sooner with N105.

That is besides the point the original argument that I made was that a quicker powder will peak faster . Peak what faster if not pressure???? You must have read into that presure some where . quicker powders will make the slide move quicker .the slide will have more velocity .and thus the case will hit the ejector post with more athority. making for a varience in load spread less evident. n105 is very slow evident by the unburnt powder flakes coming from the gun.

in the grip department look very closely at the statement that I made right after the statement that open guns are designed to be shot from a neutral grip. I said that you must give the gun a firm platform wall for the gun to operate apon. Again I can pick words out of context to make an argument. Brian alos stated in the post you refer to that its much like griping a hammer. you start hammering all day long with your "seriouly firm 100% grip and befor you know it you will be putting input into the hammer and missing the nail from fatigue.

Newtons laws of phisics state that for every action there is an equal and opisite reaction . I asume that this doesnot applie to a fire arm. the point being that imput in the form of a biased grip at the wrist will have the opsite effect when the slide inevitable changes direction .other wise the shooter would have to be able to change his bias.in less than .002sec . Not humanly posible .I think you are confused with a strangle hold and a pushing gun and a firmly well platformed gun with no shooter bias. the thing the video doesnt show is foot placement .ellbow posture . back attitude etc .strangle holds limit the shooters ability to manipulate the trigger. exsess tension in the arms translates to the sholders and back and make transitions harder.not to mention that the lactic acid build up will make the muscles less responsive to the nervous systems input.

I find that my opininated view point works for me so the result is my statements can not therforebe "untrue" In the end you give your opinions and I give mine take them for what their worth. At least my opinions are educated but still that opinion

Actually, we're 6% apart, and I've got classifiers in Limited as high as 94% (I lost some similar Open classifiers during a membership break as well), so we're not exactly on the same level. The higher you get, the harder each percentage point is to attain...ask me how I know. Heck, I'm only 6.24% away from GM...but I sure don't go around saying that my skill level is about same as a GM

I'm not building complete guns (yet), but I seem to beat a lot of famous gunsmiths Just because somebody can build them well, doesn't mean they're the best at shooting them. The only extremely high level shooter I know building guns is Matt McLearn....that's a pretty rare combination.

I'll bet a paycheck you don't really know, for a fact, that a faster powder will give the slide a higher velocity, or start it moving sooner. Why? Glock, who you're pretty familiar with, couldn't give us a specific slide speed range for proper function the last time we ran into a problem with certain ammo ("we" being work). Glock couldn't sort out differences in slide speed due to different weight bullets, and different powders, so I'm willing to bet, you haven't either.

On Brian's hammer grip analogy, he came back to say that it was how he described it to put someone in the ballpark. I don't recall the exact wording, but he didn't disagree that the amount of pressure you apply to the hammer changes as you swing it. The amount of pressure during the swing increases at/around the point of impact, much like the top guys describe when talking about driving the gun, or a post-ignition push (good thing). Pushing forward on the gun, post-ignition, isn't neutral, but it's what has to happen to shoot an Open gun (really any gun) really fast.

In the video, the OP's bottom two fingers are bouncing and vibrating...which shows his grip tension with the support hand was relaxed, and that's why the gun was flopping around so much. That really isn't an opinion, it's a clearly visible fact...weak support hand grip = lots of gun movement. R,

[CocoBolo]

I'm just a B, and I've only dinked with open guns for two years. What I see is an old school gun with an old school comp. N105 is perfect for this combination you are probably not using enough take it up to 175+ it might just flatten out and soften up. Try a lighter bullet with more powder and gas to get the comp working like old school.

Double plug shoot it for 6 months and re-evaluate your options.

If you have not replaced the spring its not a 9#, it use to be one but they don't last that long! Try some drills with different weight springs, then you will know which one works best for you now, later it may change.

I just shot Rudy Projects Big Dawg Daddy's 38SC gun Sunday, he is now shooting N105 with a Brazos ThunderComp II and 2 small poppel holes, impressively soft and flat. I hate to admit it but it was just a tick better than my 9 major, but I hate them holes. The holes make a big difference with the Brazos, I ran one for a while without holes.

[Flexmoney]

GmanBart & Mad Scientist, I'd appreciate if you two would share you opinions from your perspectives, and skip the back and forth personal stuff.

Kyle F.

Forum Administrator

[Sean Gaines]

I'll bet a paycheck you don't really know, for a fact, that a faster powder will give the slide a higher velocity, or start it moving sooner. Why? Glock, who you're pretty familiar with, couldn't give us a specific slide speed range for proper function the last time we ran into a problem with certain ammo ("we" being work). Glock couldn't sort out differences in slide speed due to different weight bullets, and different powders, so I'm willing to bet, you haven't either.

First of all you both are good M shooters and contribute alot to the forums. You CAN agree to disagree!

on the slide speed, I tend to disagree with this statement, now it maybe true with a glock, but not a 1911 type platform, where there are too many variables at work. ie:

Slide to frame fit

Trigger spring to fight against

lightend or non lightend slide

recoil spring

friction from any moving parts, that may speed up or slow the slide down.

This is one of the most difficult things in open gun building. you could take two guns off the line, and each gun will shoot differently. finding the right combination can be endless to make a gun shoot the way you want it to. Most people settle on what they get and then make refinmenments to the most obvious at first and move on to more technical gunsmith realated issues after that! Or they just shoot what they got.

[CocoBolo]

I'll bet a paycheck you don't really know, for a fact, that a faster powder will give the slide a higher velocity, or start it moving sooner. Why? Glock, who you're pretty familiar with, couldn't give us a specific slide speed range for proper function the last time we ran into a problem with certain ammo ("we" being work). Glock couldn't sort out differences in slide speed due to different weight bullets, and different powders, so I'm willing to bet, you haven't either.

First of all you both are good M shooters and contribute alot to the forums. You CAN agree to disagree!

on the slide speed, I tend to disagree with this statement, now it maybe true with a glock, but not a 1911 type platform, where there are too many variables at work. ie:

Slide to frame fit

Trigger spring to fight against

lightend or non lightend slide

recoil spring

friction from any moving parts, that may speed up or slow the slide down.

This is one of the most difficult things in open gun building. you could take two guns off the line, and each gun will shoot differently. finding the right combination can be endless to make a gun shoot the way you want it to. Most people settle on what they get and then make refinmenments to the most obvious at first and move on to more technical gunsmith realated issues after that! Or they just shoot what they got.

Well said Sean :bow: , I got three that look identical in almost every way, they all three shoot different.

[Sarge]

Edited again!

Edited June 1, 2011 by Kevin Sanders

[Mad Scientist]

No. The best place for it is on top of your weak hand index finger not touching the gun at all.

hmm that's exactly what I'm doing right now, so the thumb stays straight and away from the frame right?

That's what works best IMO. Try just shooting at a berm without aiming at anything. Watch the dot tracking. Try it with the thumb touching and without.

You do not need your thumb to "control" recoil.

(in case it matters, I'm at 82% too )

It does matter You are THE MAN .See you at Cherrokee

Edited June 1, 2011 by Mad Scientist

[Singlestack]

No. The best place for it is on top of your weak hand index finger not touching the gun at all.

hmm that's exactly what I'm doing right now, so the thumb stays straight and away from the frame right?

That's what works best IMO. Try just shooting at a berm without aiming at anything. Watch the dot tracking. Try it with the thumb touching and without.

You do not need your thumb to "control" recoil.

(in case it matters, I'm at 82% too )

It does matter You are THE MAN .See you at Cherrokee

So, what do you want?

[Sarge]

Robot,

I would personally not count on any one opinion from this forum. I have read tons of info and generally find that if you keep score almost every thread ends up being a dead heat between one way of doing something and doing it the exact opposite. The best guidance for me comes from local skilled shooters who know what I can do or can't do. They spend less time talking about there percentages and more time talking to me. A few examples I see so far here:

I have been told to slap the trigger on my new gun. You have been told not to. I tried it and it worked for me much better on close targets especially.

I was also told to put my left thumb on the scope mount. It seems to work well for me in limited range time.

But hey, I'm only a C shooter in Open. But I do get alot of good advice from people I know and trust.

[Singlestack]

Then why do you bother with the Forum? I mean, it sounds like you don't trust the advice given here. Is that because it is different from what you have been told, or have you spent the time to learn it for yourself? Most giving advice in this thread are A class and above, so take that for what it's worth.

The people in this thread were giving opinions based on what got them where they are, not what "some guy" at the range told them.

[Shay1911]

My 2 cents worth...

I dont think your comp/gas system are 100% efficient. If you look at the slower motion video, your muzzle rise starts as soon as the bullet goes through the comp. The gas system is not using 100% of the gas to negate muzzle rise or momentum. I think that comp is efficient enough if you have some holes in the barrel, but not by itself. Watch the amount of gas escaping from the front of the comp after the bullet, you are not using 100% of it, some is escaping. Not enough surface area to strip and use the gas produced. If you don't like holes in your barrel, go for a more efficient comp.

Slide seems heavy. When the slide is at the end of its cycle, as the barrel drops down and hits your frame, it is bumping it with enough force to cause even more muzzle rise.

Recoil spring is a tad heavy, thats why the spent cases are dribbling down from the gun. I would check your ejector as well, make sure it is long enough. You may need a longer one to take advantage of more momentum out of the slide.

I agree with others, lower bullet weight and N105 would, probably, help you run it better, especially if you lighten the slide and open up for more gas use.

Just my 2 cents, hope this helps.

The slow motion video is beautiful. What camera are you running?

[robot]

Thanks! The reason why I'm posting on the forum is to learn the "rails" for shooting open guns. I understand that it varies immensely from shooter to shooter and made even worse when you throw in the gun and ammo into the mix. What I learn is what are the extremes and then fill in the "inbetween" with actual personal experience. That way I know how to steer away from the obvious mistakes. That'll make for a much quicker learning period. All feedback is invaluable and I thank everyone who posted on this thread. Please keep it coming!

As for the gun, yes it's an old style slide which I should consider lightening, I'm already using a 9lb spring which should be pretty light. My ammo is 124gr MG CMJ, 10.gr N105, Winchester SRP and starline brass loaded to 1.240OAL. the other companion load that makes similar powerfactor for me is the 115gr MG CMJ with 11.0gr N105. I'll try both of those loads to see which ones work best for dot tracking. I'll make sure I film both in slow-motion for everyone to dissect.

As for the camera, it's a Casio EXLIM FH-100 which is pretty handy as a camera, video recorder with high speed functions up to 1000fps. Although the quality at that speed is pretty low.

[Sarge]

Then why do you bother with the Forum? I mean, it sounds like you don't trust the advice given here. Is that because it is different from what you have been told, or have you spent the time to learn it for yourself? Most giving advice in this thread are A class and above, so take that for what it's worth.

The people in this thread were giving opinions based on what got them where they are, not what "some guy" at the range told them.

I don't think this was called for. Not at all.

[Sarge]

Robot, this is a very good thread that I'm sure will yield lots of good info. Thanks for posting it.

[Foxbat]

Then why do you bother with the Forum? I mean, it sounds like you don't trust the advice given here.

To be fair, this is what he said: "I would personally not count on any one opinion from this forum."

On any ONE... reads kinda different, heh?