What do you see?

[robot]

Need some critique in terms of gun, how it's functioning, technique, extraction, muzzle flip etc. Please tell me what your experienced eyes see that I don't.

thanks so much!

Edited May 28, 2011 by robot

[A63111]

Looks like the muzzle dips after every shot. May need a lighter recoil spring. Just my .02.;

[robot]

Looks like the muzzle dips after every shot. May need a lighter recoil spring. Just my .02.;

I see that too, I'm already running a 9lb spring. Maybe it's my grip, or lack of. appreaciate the feedback, love them, both good and bad.

thanks!

[HI5-O]

The ejection of your fired case looks inconsistent.

Check ejector (if loose) or extractor (tension; clocking) or loads are not consistent.

What does the shot group look like?

[rishii]

You're slapping the trigger, the further in the string you shot the More pronounced it got

[flack jacket]

Robot,

Fellow Rudy shooter here in CA.

I use 8# considering 7#. Mind you i'm using 9major...

Technique looks fine to me, as long as you get your hits.

[ParaGunner]

The ejection of your fired case looks inconsistent.

Check ejector (if loose) or extractor (tension; clocking) or loads are not consistent.

What does the shot group look like?

+1 to the above and it also it seems like a lot of muzzle flip. Is the dot leaving the lens?

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I have a question. Is the comp hitting the slide? Thanks, Eric

[OpenDot]

Great Video!

[robot]

i shot 12 shots very quickly and all hits were on paper although group was large. Dot was jumping all over the place obviously but never left the lens. Flip looks substantial perhaps I didn't have a good grip on the gun. What do you guys think about the small flake like dust? Is that unburnt powder?

Is the comp working? That was shot using 124gr MG CMJ with 10gr N105 making 172pf.

as for slapping the trigger yeah totally see that but so hard to think about it when shooting so quickly.

[Loves2Shoot]

.5" flip isn't that much, and the dot shouldn't leave the screen. Just pounding the heck out of the trigger it is hard to tell much, I would think you would get much better feedback from video of shooting targets for A's.

[G-ManBart]

You're not driving the gun at all...just letting it flop around with each shot. Sometimes that happens when folks are doing a function test, or chrono work. Increased grip pressure, mostly with the left hand, and actually driving the gun, in opposition to the recoil, will cause it to flatten out (dramatically), let you shoot faster, and give you a smaller group. Shooting an Open gun (well) is quite different, in multiple ways, from everything else. A seriously firm grip, backed off just to the point it doesn't detract from trigger manipulation, is about ideal.

If you/your grip limits the muzzle flip, it also limits the muzzle dip...just something to consider.

I'd do some bill drills where you shoot nothing but Alphas...just see what happens when you play with grip pressure. You can also do try the Burkett timing drills. When you really get it down, you'll feel like you're driving the bullets into the A zone, and Charlies (forget Deltas) happen only because you're pushing to the edge of your speed/ability. R,

Edited May 28, 2011 by G-ManBart

[Mad Scientist]

By looking at that I notice two things. the slide apears to be slugish and very inconsistant in velocity. n105 is a full load in 38 so check your press for spilled powder. also the recoil spring should be @ 9 pnds with that slow a powder. the slow powder takes a long time to reach peak thus slowing every thing down. droping the recoil spring will speed the slide up,taking out the dip and evening out the ejection pattern.

Going to a slightly quicker powder will get things going faster making tunning more consistant.

Secondly it apears that you have a strangle hold on the gun. Open guns are ment to be shot from a neutral grip . If you are pushing the gun the dot will dip. Dont get me wrong you need a good patfom wall for the gun to operate from.In contrast a pushed gun will beat you to death. track the dot and let the gun work . most find that the dot comes right back to from where it started .

[G-ManBart]

By looking at that I notice two things. the slide apears to be slugish and very inconsistant in velocity. n105 is a full load in 38 so check your press for spilled powder. also the recoil spring should be @ 9 pnds with that slow a powder. the slow powder takes a long time to reach peak thus slowing every thing down. droping the recoil spring will speed the slide up,taking out the dip and evening out the ejection pattern.

Going to a slightly quicker powder will get things going faster making tunning more consistant.

Untrue.

For fun, I ran the numbers on the OP's load using QuickLoad. I substituted a Hornady 124gr FMJ since they don't have MG bullets listed. With the N105 load, the Pmax was at .16" of bullet travel. I then changed the powder to N105, and dropped the charge to 8gr to get a similar PF, and the Pmax went to .18"...so at least with some faster powders the pressure max won't be earlier.

Secondly it apears that you have a strangle hold on the gun. Open guns are ment to be shot from a neutral grip . If you are pushing the gun the dot will dip. Dont get me wrong you need a good patfom wall for the gun to operate from.In contrast a pushed gun will beat you to death. track the dot and let the gun work . most find that the dot comes right back to from where it started .

Also untrue.

This thread has very detailed discussions about how to grip an Open gun. Dave Re (XRe) and Benos' comments are extremely telling:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111063&view=findpost&p=1260850

Edited May 28, 2011 by G-ManBart

[Mad Scientist]

By looking at that I notice two things. the slide apears to be slugish and very inconsistant in velocity. n105 is a full load in 38 so check your press for spilled powder. also the recoil spring should be @ 9 pnds with that slow a powder. the slow powder takes a long time to reach peak thus slowing every thing down. droping the recoil spring will speed the slide up,taking out the dip and evening out the ejection pattern.

Going to a slightly quicker powder will get things going faster making tunning more consistant.

Untrue.

For fun, I ran the numbers on the OP's load using QuickLoad. I substituted a Hornady 124gr FMJ since they don't have MG bullets listed. With the N105 load, the Pmax was at .16" of bullet travel. I then changed the powder to N105, and dropped the charge to 8gr to get a similar PF, and the Pmax went to .18"...so at least with some faster powders the pressure max won't be earlier.

Secondly it apears that you have a strangle hold on the gun. Open guns are ment to be shot from a neutral grip . If you are pushing the gun the dot will dip. Dont get me wrong you need a good patfom wall for the gun to operate from.In contrast a pushed gun will beat you to death. track the dot and let the gun work . most find that the dot comes right back to from where it started .

Also untrue.

This thread has very detailed discussions about how to grip an Open gun. Dave Re (XRe) and Benos' comments are extremely telling:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111063&view=findpost&p=1260850

. I speek form 10 years of exsperience in shooting open guns and building 10 world champion pistols. not some numbers on a graph somewhere.Thia is a very opininated forum.It is exspected that every one be allowed to exspress theirs . I respect your right to say what you feel . I shoot open guns every single day. I shot 6 diferent guns this week alone.

slower powders by nature take longer to burn thus the term slower .slower burn would net slower presure build and thus a slower peek.the physics support the statment .

neutral grip means shooting without forward or latteral presure. forward push at the wrist will push the gun down once the slide motion changes direction.

Aslo the OP stated he was using n105 so I dont see what your analasis shows us.I was talking about burn rate not bullet speed.

As for grip I speek from my own exsperiences and the way I build a gun. BE is right on the money "Death grip no good" I went back and read the posts from the grip thread they are basicaly saying the same thing in a different way. I beileive I origionaly said that it looks like the OP had a strangle hold on the gun and was pushing the gun. and that an open gun was ment to be shoot from a neutral grip. I stand by that statment.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Mad Scientist

[HI5-O]

Looks like you have a few things to try out and let us know what worked for you and your gun/load combo.

Hard to say what those flakes are, you would probably have to set up some kind of "trap" (cheese cloth/women's stockings) to catch what is coming from the gun. Could be flakes of carbon from the firing process. Unburnt powder will look like the powder you use (ask revolver shooters)

Have fun with it

[robot]

Thanks so much for your opinions and advice. All of them are good and useful for me to experiment with now that I know what to look for. Will post more videos when I can.

This is gonna be interesting!

[G-ManBart]

I speek form 10 years of exsperience in shooting open guns and building 10 world champion pistols. not some numbers on a graph somewhere.Thia is a very opininated forum.It is exspected that every one be allowed to exspress theirs . I respect your right to say what you feel . I shoot open guns every single day. I shot 6 diferent guns this week alone.

slower powders by nature take longer to burn thus the term slower .slower burn would net slower presure build and thus a slower peek.the physics support the statment .

neutral grip means shooting without forward or latteral presure. forward push at the wrist will push the gun down once the slide motion changes direction.

Aslo the OP stated he was using n105 so I dont see what your analasis shows us.I was talking about burn rate not bullet speed.

As for grip I speek from my own exsperiences and the way I build a gun. BE is right on the money "Death grip no good" I went back and read the posts from the grip thread they are basicaly saying the same thing in a different way. I beileive I origionaly said that it looks like the OP had a strangle hold on the gun and was pushing the gun. and that an open gun was ment to be shoot from a neutral grip. I stand by that statment.

Well, I'd been shooting Open guns for ten years when you started shooting them Since you don't have your name or USPSA member number in your profile, what sort of level are you shooting Open guns at now?

Your understanding of how powders burns is incorrect/incomplete. I used both the OP's N105 load and an equivalent N350 load for comparison, and N105 reaches it's Pmax (peak pressure) earlier than N350, and we can all probably agree N350 is "faster" than N105. So, the pressure isn't necessarily building slower with N105 just because it's a "slower" powder...it just doesn't work that way (at least not consistently). In short, the "slower" powder reached its peak pressure faster.

If the OP was pushing the gun forward, it would have moved forward a whole bunch when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber....that didn't happen. On the contrary, it's obvious that the gun is moving around in his hand, and that movement isn't being countered by anything. Heck, look at the bottom two fingers on his support (left) hand...they bounce around, and you can see the daylight increase and decrease as the gun moves around, and his hand vibrates/shakes....that's far from a death grip, and not even "firm"...which is why the gun is flipping then diving.

Nobody said a death grip was good, but if you noticed, XRe mentioned going to almost 100% with the left hand under certain circumstances, and even Brian has said (in several threads) that a seriously firm grip was about right.

Edited May 29, 2011 by G-ManBart

[G-ManBart]

Thanks so much for your opinions and advice. All of them are good and useful for me to experiment with now that I know what to look for. Will post more videos when I can.

This is gonna be interesting!

When you hit the right balance, it will be obvious

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Another thing you could try is a lighter bullet? Also as I stated above is the slide hitting the comp? If so, it may be causing some of your dip. An open pistol is a different animal and takes time to master it. Some days are great and some days just don't work out that well in my limited experience. Powders and charge make a bigger difference than you think. Higher power factor is not always a bad thing if it works the comp better. Take your time and work up a load you like using the dot and a timer as your guide Thanks, Eric

[Mad Scientist]

I speek form 10 years of exsperience in shooting open guns and building 10 world champion pistols. not some numbers on a graph somewhere.Thia is a very opininated forum.It is exspected that every one be allowed to exspress theirs . I respect your right to say what you feel . I shoot open guns every single day. I shot 6 diferent guns this week alone.

slower powders by nature take longer to burn thus the term slower .slower burn would net slower presure build and thus a slower peek.the physics support the statment .

neutral grip means shooting without forward or latteral presure. forward push at the wrist will push the gun down once the slide motion changes direction.

Aslo the OP stated he was using n105 so I dont see what your analasis shows us.I was talking about burn rate not bullet speed.

As for grip I speek from my own exsperiences and the way I build a gun. BE is right on the money "Death grip no good" I went back and read the posts from the grip thread they are basicaly saying the same thing in a different way. I beileive I origionaly said that it looks like the OP had a strangle hold on the gun and was pushing the gun. and that an open gun was ment to be shoot from a neutral grip. I stand by that statment.

Well, I'd been shooting Open guns for ten years when you started shooting them Since you don't have your name or USPSA member number in your profile, what sort of level are you shooting Open guns at now?

Your understanding of how powders burns is incorrect/incomplete. I used both the OP's N105 load and an equivalent N350 load for comparison, and N105 reaches it's Pmax (peak pressure) earlier than N350, and we can all probably agree N350 is "faster" than N105. So, the pressure isn't necessarily building slower with N105 just because it's a "slower" powder...it just doesn't work that way (at least not consistently). In short, the "slower" powder reached its peak pressure faster.

If the OP was pushing the gun forward, it would have moved forward a whole bunch when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber....that didn't happen. On the contrary, it's obvious that the gun is moving around in his hand, and that movement isn't being countered by anything. Heck, look at the bottom two fingers on his support (left) hand...they bounce around, and you can see the daylight increase and decrease as the gun moves around, and his hand vibrates/shakes....that's far from a death grip, and not even "firm"...which is why the gun is flipping then diving.

Nobody said a death grip was good, but if you noticed, XRe mentioned going to almost 100% with the left hand under certain circumstances, and even Brian has said (in several threads) that a seriously firm grip was about right.

well that exsplains every thing

have a great memorial day !!!

JOHN NAGEL

Edited May 30, 2011 by Mad Scientist

[Sean Gaines]

Looks like you may have a heavy recoil spring. You have a tuning fork action at the end of the slide cycle. I had the same thing with my long dust cover limited gun, and it had a 14lb spring in it, which was heavy. I could never get the type of accurate splits that I wanted with out being all over the target. I like a quick slide to the rear and a slower slide recovery for better tracking. As others have stated, look at your grip. You have a lot of gas comming out of the gun, I figured it would be a pretty flat shooting gun, and maybe it is. JMO, I think you may do better with a different compensator, or opening the first chamber up more. To me it seems that their is alot of blast comming out of the front of the gun, instead of more gas being directed upwards, maybe a blow hole or two, but it will be extremly loud. also you may think about lightning the slide some..

[robot]

Thanks guys!

Sean, I'm already running a 9lb spring, perhaps the slide is heavy, it's not lightened in anyway, and the gun was setup the old fashioned way, heavy slide, heavy spring. Perhaps you're right, I need to get the slide lightened to match the recoil spring.

Grip is def something I need to fix.

[usmc1974]

cool video, part of it could be your grip, your weakhand thumb is not even touching the frame.

[robot]

cool video, part of it could be your grip, your weakhand thumb is not even touching the frame.

that's right! seeing that I don't have a thumbrest, best place would be to place it on the scope mount correct?