1X optic rule effect on course design, rifle distance?

[Nuke8401]

Reading another thread about target size for rifle stages and iron sights; the conclusion I came to is that if shooters (irons and now 1X) can't hit the targets they won't like the match or division they are shooting and make a change most likely to TAC Optics. Or in the case of new shooters with 1X just stop participating.

From the last old thread, the recommendation from the top irons shooters was 4 MOA MINIMUM.

I just shot my first match with targets >200 yds. I choose to shoot irons, and while it was a great match I was disappointed that I could not hit one of two MGM flash targets at 300 yards or either bonus MGM flash at 375. I plan to stick with irons at least through this year.

I can now see/understand the negative effect missing these long/small targets has on new shooters and with the new 1X shooters I’m sure they will struggle to hit these.

Have you seen a change in target size/distance since this rule change at matches so far this year?

[Kyle O]

Long range shooting used to be my downfall, then I started practicing it, and now, it's just another skill in my bag.

Know your zeros, know your holds, and by all means send some metal downrange! It will freak you out how much easier the 300 yard shots are. Oh, and I shoot 1x RDS.

I have been practicing the 4moa, and don't have an issue with that size.

[Doug H.]

Unfortunately you can't make the targets large enough for some people. I couldn't hit the long stuff when I first started shooting 3 gun. Equipment upgrades and lots of practice did the trick. If shooters just want the stages easier so they feel better about themselves I can't agree with that, but making the stages reasonable I can see.

I don't think allowing red dot sights was supposed to change course design but simply allow new shooters to compete in a more appropriate division. In the long run, it will still turn out that shooters that know their equipment and practice will win, regardless of what kind of sight they are using.

Doug

[DyNo!]

Only shot one match so far this year. As far as I can tell, target size isn't the concern as much as visibility is. It doesn't matter how big it is, if I can't see it, it isn't going to get shot!

The Texas MG had no backers but the 4MOA targets and LaRue falling targets were visible.

I'm hoping the targets at Blue Ridge will have good contrast.

[Alaskapopo]

Only shot one match so far this year. As far as I can tell, target size isn't the concern as much as visibility is. It doesn't matter how big it is, if I can't see it, it isn't going to get shot!

The Texas MG had no backers but the 4MOA targets and LaRue falling targets were visible.

I'm hoping the targets at Blue Ridge will have good contrast.

If they make the targets too big its not really challenging or fun anymore. Just my opinion I think steel targets between 2 and 4 moa are good.

Pat

[bigbrowndog]

4moa minimum

contrasting backers

paint for each shooter

every steel target falls

it can be done, it will be done, it has been done.

stop making excuses!!!!!

trapr

Edited April 25, 2011 by bigbrowndog

[Nuke8401]

I think since all shooters must shoot the same COF, the COF should be doable by the average shooter in any class which is how most pistol only COF are designed. While not the best pistol shooter on the planet, I like more challenging stages. Even on "easy" stages you as the shooter can make them as hard as you want by increasing speed. I think the same holds true for rifle stages. 4 MOA too easy at 400 yards? just bring those split times down. I just think with allowing 1X the goal was to give average RDO shooters a place to compeate and if they can't hit the targets they won't be around long unless they join the equipment race.

So the scores are out on my last 2 gun, my first match with rifle >100 yds, I beat all but 23 of 95 optics shooters and if you were to throw out the 300 yard 10" steel stage I would have beaten all but 12 optics shooters. Part of me wants to join the optics crowd but for now I am on a mission to improve with irons.

My goal is 4 MOA any distance.

[Bryan 45]

Pat, how often do you practice on 2 moa targets with iron sights? At what distances do you shoot iron sights?

When 3 gun becomes a game of precision rifle, it's going to exclude a lot of iron sights shooters.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Bryan 45

[bigbrowndog]

Pat, if its too easy hitting your LR rifle targets with your optic, then move to Irons!!

We would LOVE to have you as a competitor.

trapr

[SinistralRifleman]

I think 4MOA needs to be the minimum size given that most people's rifles are only consistently capable of 1.5MOA accuracy (from a bench) regardless of optics or sighting systems used.

Edited April 26, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[spd522]

Pat, how often do you practice on 2 moa targets with iron sights? At what distances do you shoot iron sights?

When 3 gun becomes a game of precision rifle, it's going to exclude a lot of iron sights shooters.

Or they just do what Bryan does and shoot fatter bullets so you have more area

covered down range. Plus nothing like the sound and visual you get from steel hit with a major caliber.

Craig

[gose]

Only shot one match so far this year. As far as I can tell, target size isn't the concern as much as visibility is. It doesn't matter how big it is, if I can't see it, it isn't going to get shot!

The Texas MG had no backers but the 4MOA targets and LaRue falling targets were visible.

I'm hoping the targets at Blue Ridge will have good contrast.

If they make the targets too big its not really challenging or fun anymore. Just my opinion I think steel targets between 2 and 4 moa are good.

Pat

Lets also start putting pistol steel no closer than 50y. If you cant hit them, just get an open pistol.

Edited April 26, 2011 by gose

[shred]

Ya know, it's pretty easy to tell the super-squad shooters (and even the good non-supers) on full-size LaRues at 90 yards....

[Vespid_Wasp]

4moa minimum

contrasting backers

paint for each shooter

every steel target falls

it can be done, it will be done, it has been done.

stop making excuses!!!!!

trapr

I agree with this but I would be satisfied with paint for each squad, and let us irons guys go first.

I shot a small match last year where someone decided to paint a piece of 300 yard steel a dull red color. In front of an earthen berm it was almost invisible without magnification.

I wouldn't even be insistent on backers if the targets had decent contrast.

[Bryan 45]

In my experience, visibility of targets without backers are much more dependent upon the position of the sun than targets with backers.

[spd522]

In my experience, visibility of targets without backers are much more dependent upon the position of the sun than targets with backers.

+1 Unbacked targets in the moving shadows are usually only clearly visible for a short time during the shooting day. Some folks get a target that glows for them and others get one that blends into the surrounding terrain.

Craig

[Dan Sierpina]

In my experience, visibility of targets without backers are much more dependent upon the position of the sun than targets with backers.

Like the long target on Stage 3? We shot it as the first squad on Saturday, the 540 yard target looked baby blueish. To locate it, you found a couple upright sticks and indexed over 10 feet or so. When I saw Dyno's video, the same target was a sharp black silhouette.

[Bryan 45]

Yes Dan! But, the target actually was blue, not black, so you were seeing it correctly and Cameron was seeing it wrong.

It has seemed to me that white painted steel are the ones that are most affected by the changing positions of the sun when there are no backers involved. Put a black backer behind a white target, and it doesn't really matter where the sun goes, but like Craig said, without a backer a moving shadow presents a unique challenge for each shooter.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Bryan 45

[Alaskapopo]

Pat, how often do you practice on 2 moa targets with iron sights? At what distances do you shoot iron sights?

When 3 gun becomes a game of precision rifle, it's going to exclude a lot of iron sights shooters.

Sorry I was not thinking about irons. Your right 4 moa would make more sense. I am also used to shooting matches with less range so smaller targets make it more challenging. One of the clubs I shoot at started using mini poppers at 200 yards and they were a challenge. But in fairness I think they are about 4 inches or so wide and 8 inches tall. I could be wrong. I also agree with backers and painting for each shooter. A few friends of mine went to the Larue match this year and they spoke about invisible targets due to lighting and the fact they had not been painted.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Only shot one match so far this year. As far as I can tell, target size isn't the concern as much as visibility is. It doesn't matter how big it is, if I can't see it, it isn't going to get shot!

The Texas MG had no backers but the 4MOA targets and LaRue falling targets were visible.

I'm hoping the targets at Blue Ridge will have good contrast.

If they make the targets too big its not really challenging or fun anymore. Just my opinion I think steel targets between 2 and 4 moa are good.

Pat

Lets also start putting pistol steel no closer than 50y. If you cant hit them, just get an open pistol.

I actually like long range pistol. The first gun game I played was bullseye. But I don't have many friends who agree with me on my love of long range pistol shots.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Pat, if its too easy hitting your LR rifle targets with your optic, then move to Irons!!

We would LOVE to have you as a competitor.

trapr

I am not good enough for long range shots with irons yet.

pat

[bigbrowndog]

So you're sayng its challenging??? right!! isn't that part of why we shoot for he challenge!!!!

trapr

[Alaskapopo]

So you're sayng its challenging??? right!! isn't that part of why we shoot for he challenge!!!!

trapr

Yep your right. The thing is I am still working on being the best I can be with glass. One thing at a time. If there were more matches up here I would try it. But as it is I shoot what I enjoy the most. We have a short season up here. When I retire I plan on going to Arizona or Texas and shooting a match every week.

Pat

[Lead-Head]

I was CRO on stage 3 at BRM3G. I shoot irons. Not a dot, but a NM post at the end of my barrel and A2 aperature.

It became aperent to me by the end of the match that unless you belong to a select few, you are at a disadvantage without a 1x set-up. Not that I could have done aany better, but the average shooter with a dot had less trouble with shooting under the car, and the long range was absolutely burned down by a guy with a prismatic. He shot it faster than anyone, including those in tac optics.

I also saw a lot of iron sighted guns with j points or similar dots mounted at 45 degrees for short stuff. Since 2 sighting systems are acceptable now in some mathces, some folks are of course taking advantage. Hell, i saw a guy shooting HM with a full sized relex bolted to his handguard. It was huge, but it helped him under the car.

I'm not going to start shooting a dot, beacuse I like started with irons and still enjoy the challenge. However, the guys moving to irons, from optics, for points that shoot 1 moa dots or prismatics, are likley to rule the roost for a while. Unless KM is there.

[AFH]

I am glad they enjoyed shooting with sights on two different sight planes this year. I mistakenly left out of the rules this year that if irons and an unmagnified optic are used on a rifle, they must be in the same plane as each other and the bore. The requirement will be added to the rules for 2012.

Andy