Chuck Anderson Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Looks like the NROI and USPSA servers are down, a hardware issue that's gonna take a bit to rectify. In the meantime the BOD and NROI did reach a consensus on a ruling. It's posted below. Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. I will post it on the NROI rulings when the server is back up. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Looks like the NROI and USPSA servers are down, a hardware issue that's gonna take a bit to rectify. In the meantime the BOD and NROI did reach a consensus on a ruling. It's posted below. Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. I will post it on the NROI rulings when the server is back up. John Chuck, (John?), Does the highlighted portion above apply only to "table starts"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. Chuck, (John?), Does the highlighted portion above apply only to "table starts"? I'm not John, but I don't see why it would---it is a separate statement entirely. However, I'm not Chuck either and since he was there, I'm sure he can answer this better than I. So why am I posting? Because I want to thank people on this forum who brought this to the attention of their Area directors, and to the Area directors for acting on this so quickly. There was a potential problem, it was recognized, communicated, and dealt with quickly and efficiently. Thanks, folks! Ah, clarity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. Chuck- Does this mean I can mount a magnet to my belt right in front and use it on a table start stage? they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. It seems like this opens the door completely once the WSB forces me not to use my pouches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 As soon as you attach the mag to the magnet, it is now a storage device that is not in compliance with appx 12. I don't know how you can confuse "carried in the hand" with using a storage device not behind the hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 As soon as you attach the mag to the magnet, it is now a storage device that is not in compliance with appx 12. I don't know how you can confuse "carried in the hand" with using a storage device not behind the hip. I think he was hoping for the IPSC interpretation where it was anything goes after the start signal for table starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks for the update Chuck. I guess mag in mouth or under armpits is not an option anymore for SS or Production shooters. On the other hand, my reading of that ruling is that neither is it an option for the other divisions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 To me, this is a good thing because it aligns the rule with other rules like Hand position. There is a defined default hand position. Once the WSB defines another hand position the defined default position is gone. ie: WSB states strong hand touching door knob. After this is defined, the weak hand can be anywhere other than touching the gun. Makes sense, I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks for the update Chuck. I guess mag in mouth or under armpits is not an option anymore for SS or Production shooters. On the other hand, my reading of that ruling is that neither is it an option for the other divisions as well. Those two carry locations were specifically discussed and intentionally excluded within this ruling. The idea was to ease confusion for the RO in making judgement calls, what's carry, what's a really slow reload etc. Also, the way the rule was written, even the reload could have been against it. This is easing it a bit, while still not making a ruling that completely flies in the face of the actual rule. This one will probably come up in the next rule book re-write. As far as the other Divisions I'm not sure why it would have any effect on them. As long as there is not division requirement on where to carry the mag, like there is in Production and Single Stack I don't see this as effecting them in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. Chuck- Does this mean I can mount a magnet to my belt right in front and use it on a table start stage? they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. It seems like this opens the door completely once the WSB forces me not to use my pouches. Why would you think that a ruling allowing you to carry magazines in your hand would allow you to do anything other than carry ammunition in the hand? We had an earlier version of the ruling that might have allowed shenanigans like this. I can't see how this one does though. And sure, I would imagine you can shoot stages without mag pouches, but you'll be holding all your spare ammo in your hand. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Looks like the NROI and USPSA servers are down, a hardware issue that's gonna take a bit to rectify. In the meantime the BOD and NROI did reach a consensus on a ruling. It's posted below. Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. I will post it on the NROI rulings when the server is back up. John Chuck, (John?), Does the highlighted portion above apply only to "table starts"? Not John either, but my read of it is it doesn't only apply to table starts. The way the rule is written (not intended) could have made the simple act of reloading, bringing the magazine to the gun in front of the centerline of your hip, a bump to Open. This is just to clarify, and basically add, another location magazines can be, pouches and allied equipment, gun and hands. If it's in a pouch or allied equipment (magnets, pockets, secret magazine storage device you've designed that's springloaded and fires a magazine at your gun dramatically reducing reloading time) it's gotta be behind the hip. If it's in the hand or gun it can be in front of the hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks for the update Chuck. I guess mag in mouth or under armpits is not an option anymore for SS or Production shooters. On the other hand, my reading of that ruling is that neither is it an option for the other divisions as well. Those two carry locations were specifically discussed and intentionally excluded within this ruling. The idea was to ease confusion for the RO in making judgement calls, what's carry, what's a really slow reload etc. Also, the way the rule was written, even the reload could have been against it. This is easing it a bit, while still not making a ruling that completely flies in the face of the actual rule. This one will probably come up in the next rule book re-write. As far as the other Divisions I'm not sure why it would have any effect on them. As long as there is not division requirement on where to carry the mag, like there is in Production and Single Stack I don't see this as effecting them in any way. There is a requirement for all divisions to carry mags within 2 inches of the inside of the belt...... So armpit and mouth are out for all divisions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 There is a requirement for all divisions to carry mags within 2 inches of the inside of the belt......So armpit and mouth are out for all divisions..... Hmmm... I'm thinking that the rule applies to retention devices that are attached to the belt. I do not consider an armpit or mouth a retention device and neither are attached to my belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 This at least brings some sanity, and for that deserves our thanks. Long term though I would like to see carry in the mouth/armpit/etc. equalized with carry in the hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 There is a requirement for all divisions to carry mags within 2 inches of the inside of the belt......So armpit and mouth are out for all divisions..... Hmmm... I'm thinking that the rule applies to retention devices that are attached to the belt. I do not consider an armpit or mouth a retention device and neither are attached to my belt. Mmmm, O.K. ---- but I never thought I'd see the day where someone would try to use 5.2.4 to move a competitor to Open for reloading....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I know I've only been in this sport for 3 years, but I have yet to see a stage that made me want to put a mag in my mouth or my armpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 There is a requirement for all divisions to carry mags within 2 inches of the inside of the belt......So armpit and mouth are out for all divisions..... Hmmm... I'm thinking that the rule applies to retention devices that are attached to the belt. I do not consider an armpit or mouth a retention device and neither are attached to my belt. Mmmm, O.K. ---- but I never thought I'd see the day where someone would try to use 5.2.4 to move a competitor to Open for reloading....... I didn't see that coming either. I know I've only been in this sport for 3 years, but I have yet to see a stage that made me want to put a mag in my mouth or my armpit. I don't believe we are talking about the WSB requiring it, just a shooter making that choice after picking them up from a table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I wasn't referring to the WSB either. I've never seen a stage where I felt putting a mag in my mouth was a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I wasn't referring to the WSB either. I've never seen a stage where I felt putting a mag in my mouth was a good choice. Well, there's always that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I just ran a shooter, yesterday, who one handed a his last shot of the day....mag in hand. The idea of having to put him in open would have been...silly. I am glad this is clarified. (Thanks for posting, Chuck) While we talked about that (this thread) after the match, a high ranked shooter shared that he has carried a mag in his mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 When does this ruling go into effect? Does it have to be posted to the USPSA web site before it is official? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 When does this ruling go into effect? Does it have to be posted to the USPSA web site before it is official? That is my understanding of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 When does this ruling go into effect? Does it have to be posted to the USPSA web site before it is official? That is my understanding of the rules. Rule interpretations do need to be posted. See 11.8.3: 11.8.3 All official USPSA interpretations of the rulebook published on the USPSA website (www.uspsa.org) will be deemed to be precedents and will be applied to all USPSA matches commencing on or after 7 days from the date of publication. All such interpretations are subject to ratification or modification at a regular or special meeting of the USPSA Board of Directors. On the other hand, rules interpretations generally clarify a rule that was vague, unclear, or in dispute -- so there is nothing preventing an RM from adopting it early, as long as the match isn't underway..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 This forum is outstanding. The NROI folks talked and made a good decision. At this year's SS Nationals, the topic of table starts and reloads was discussed at the match briefing and on the stages! Way to go BE forum members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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