Jack Suber Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I have a Texas Star scoring related question. While practicing yesterday on a Star, I hit a plate that came loose but did not fall (it was hanging by one of the holes in the plate. I am assuming that if I did this in a major match, it would be scored as a hit? I wanted to make sure because In know that there will be Stars in the Fla State, South Carolina Sectional, and Area 6. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Technically it would probably be 'range equipment failure' what with the new rules and all "If the RO says you hit the plate, but it didn't fall, it's R.E.F." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I'd be careful ... it might be like a popper. I cannot imagine getting a direct (full diameter) hit and the plate not falling. If you nick the edge and it does not fall you had better fire another shot. YMMV Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I had that happen to me during the Missouri Fall Classic last year. It was chalked up to range equipment failure and I had to reshoot it. Turned out to be a very good thing, for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted March 30, 2004 Author Share Posted March 30, 2004 Unfortunately, I had been shooting it for a while and had not painted the plates. So, I don't know where I hit it. I tend to agree that it had to be a knick, though. I can see the range malfunction idea, but given that it is a plate, could it be looked at the same way as of you hit a regular plate and spun it on its stand and it not falling? It has always been my understanding that if you hit the plate and spin it (which only happens when you knick it), it was a hit. I began wondering about this in case it happens when it matters. Thanks for the replies. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I always thought that "steel must fall to score" and that plates were supposed to have a foot on the plate or stand to make spinning the plate impossible. And if that's true, I would score a spun plate as a miss unless you could get an angle on it and knock it down. But on the star I would go with REF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Jack, I can only respond in respect of IPSC rules, and the following from the January 2004 Edition Rulebook is relevant: 4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. Therefore if a metal plate has been adequately hit but it fails to fall or overturn, a Range Officer may declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The way you've described the incident (especially your "it was hanging by one of the holes in the plate" comment), it's likely that I would declare REF if I was your RO. Having said that, I believe the above rule is one of the rules which has been "tweaked" by the USPSA, and I suspect the word "may" above was changed to "shall", but there's no way to check at the moment unless a member of the BOD is willing to step forward and stick his neck out. Ohhhh Bruuuuuuce? Garrrrrry? Arrrrrrrnie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Vince, Please define "adequately hit" for those in the cheap seats. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Yikes! More ambiguity and subjective decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Yikes! More ambiguity and subjective decisions. Maybe...but it beats what we had in the past when there was a clear malfunction. (Steel must fall to score.) There is a thread around here on that somewhere, and I think Vince and crew worked to fix a complaint a lot of us had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 US rules say that if it doesn't fall, it's REF, no matter if it's left hanging, or spins. It's still REF. Plates are not subject to calibration, so if you hit it, and it doesn't do what it's supposed to do (fall over, fall off), it's REF. This is the case in both the old and new rules. The USPSA rules don't leave it up to the RO. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Here's the relevant new USPSA rule: US 4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a metal target has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. HTH. Troy (Not on the BOD, but I do have a copy of the rules.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 What he said! Take an atta boy out of petty cash there Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Just another reason stars should be banned from "real" matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Thank you for setting me straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Troy, Take a read on this ugly thread (were Vince and I smack each other around a bit...we must have been posting right before nap-time), it's all about plates and problems: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...late,and,broken (Or, better yet...don't. It wasn't mine, or Vince's finest hour. It's all good now though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 US 4.3.1.6?? I can't even find that in my book. Is that in the USPSA 14th Ed? 4.3.1.3 IPSC plates (see Appendix D) shall not be used exclusively in any course of fire. Authorized paper targets or Poppers must be included to recognize power. Metal plates shall always fall or overturn when hit and must be designed and installed to prevent them from turning edge-on or sideways. Metal targets that turn edge-on or sideways when hit is not permitted. After reading the thread that Flexmoney linked to and going back to the book, I stand by my first reply. And what's up with those hinged plates mentioned in the other thread??? Obviously unapproved targets and a problem waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Sorry, Yardbird, but a plate that turns sideways is never a hit. It's always REF. Plates must fall--they can be hinged so that they don't fly off something or turn sideways, or they can be freestanding, but they must fall when hit. You can't arbitrarily call a hit on a turned plate, even if the competitor can't shoot it again--that's the basis for the rule. The rulebook illustrates a method of keeping plates from spinning by using a block in front of the plate. This is not the only way, but it's a good one. Regarding the rule I cited, it's in the new version of the USPSA rules--not yet released--but the rule you cited from the 14th (still in effect) is the correct rule, and applies in this instance. Hinged plates are not unapproved or illegal, as long as they meet the size/shape requirements, and fall when hit. Hope this helps. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Here's the executive summary of the previous thread: "I hit a plate and it didn't fall". "Well, you didn't hit it then, plates must fall when hit". "But there's a mark on it".. and so on. Thus the new, explicit "What to do if a plate looks like it's been hit, but didn't do what it was supposed to" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I say, and I think the current and future (USPSA) rules say: Reshoot, due to REF. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. It's what we've practiced for plates at all the matches I've worked, anyway, with the exception of one notable mistake. I saw J. Bean's comments about the star plates at A4 last year--he got screwed, IMO. They either fall off or it's a reshoot. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Leo, "Adequately hit" means what it says. I've seen competitors stop and give me a "deer in the headlights" look after a plate "trembled" but failed to fall following a minor edge hit, but that wouldn't make the grade for me. I've also seen cases where the competitor actually shot the plate support (not the plate) and he wanted a reshoot (not awarded). As long as the plate was hit "fairly & squarely", I'd order a reshoot. For example, I've seen a plate hit twice, dead centre, and it hardly moved, and this is why the "adequately hit" verbiage beats the former "must fall to score" verbiage. And this is yet another reason why metal targets must be repainted after each competitor. Michael, IPSC is not an exact science. For example, if and when an RO declares that a shot has passed through hard cover and hit a paper target, that's a subjective call too. Of course this can be avoided if the COF was properly constructed and/or debugged, but I just wanted to make a point. L2S, Although the Texas Star is merely a mechanism holding authorised plates (it's not, in and of itself, a target), I would never use one on a stage that I design, because I think they're way too reminiscent of something you'd see at Coney Island. In fact, I only ever use plates to imitate car headlights or as a metal equivalent of an upper B zone on an IPSC Metric Target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 go Vince, Let's abolish all Coney Island props like the Tx Star and freaking swinging bridges... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 "Coney Island"?!?! You have some problem with designing innovative, challenging and fun target arrays. I guess if we left it up to you we would just shoot wide open IPSC targets at between 7 and 10 yards. Don't dare cover part of one target with another or with a no-shoot since you might run into scoring problems with bullets that cut the perf on the top target. The Texas Star is just one of a number of new target arrays to come out of this part of the world (windmill, bear traps). They add new challenges to the shooting and give stage designers additional tools to vary the stages presented to shooters. The amount of traffic on this board regarding the Texas Star should give you some idea of the popularity of the target. If you think the (very rare) possibility of shooting a plate on the star so that it hangs on one pin without coming off is sufficient reason to ban the array from USPSA competition then I strongly suggest you never come to West Texas for a match. The upcoming Texas State 3-Gun Championship features five Texas Stars, 6 bear traps, two hammers (like a star but with just two plates), 17 swingers, 4 suspension bridges, one windmill, moving targets at 100yds., and four poppers that throw clay pigeons into the air. I'm sure you couldn't get past the "Coney Island" air to appreciate the shooting challenges presented. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 You are probably right. All it needs is some neon lights and a calliope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Kelly, Chill, dude. Who said anything about banning anything? Sheesh. Anyway, I'm sure you good ol' boys in West Texas can teach us danged pissant furriners a trick or two about course design (and how to make a real barbeque), so why don't y'all come to a World Shoot one day and show us the ropes? The first decaf is on me ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now