Is USPSA about accuracy?

[sfinney]

USPSA is about Acceptable Accuracy, at the fastest pace.

Top Shot (for the most part) has been about Accuracy (and in some cases more like just NOT MISSING). Speed (except for a few challenges) was not a factor, or at least very secondary.

[Coach]

Basically the answer is no. Because any answer always trumps any lack of accuracy with a statement about speed. It is ok that it is about speed first. But let's just say so.

[bluenite]

USPSA is about Acceptable Accuracy, at the fastest pace.

That is exactly my understanding of the sport.

To me the point is made by the word PRACTIAL in the name of the sport, to me that means ”useful in the real world”. Against an armed assailant is it better to make the fastest shot you can, and hit the vital zone or be laying on the ground thinking (with more time I could have hit the third button down on his shirt). I think this is why the A zone is the size it is and speed is such a factor. And this is why I love the sport.

If I had an issue about it, it would be with the POWER part (if you graze the skin of the spare tire of an assailant is your benefit twice as much if you shoot a .40 then with a 9mm) but hey it’s just a game right.

Leonard

[Coach]

It is a game. But we do have power covered. No .380. I have never understood that round. How many of us have a use for it? I never get to shoot at naked people.

[blaster113]

accuracy is just one component of our sport, along with speed, movement, etc. it does seem that a little more emphasis is placed on speed over accuracy

[Coach]

accuracy is just one component of our sport, along with speed, movement, etc. it does seem that a little more emphasis is placed on speed over accuracy

Thanks. This is what I was looking for.

[Nik Habicht]

accuracy is just one component of our sport, along with speed, movement, etc. it does seem that a little more emphasis is placed on speed over accuracy

Thanks. This is what I was looking for.

It's a balance: Generally speaking you can't miss fast enough to win, but you definitely can hit slowly enough to lose....

The best shooters aren't dropping many Charlies, and fewer Deltas. Penalties will put you out of contention pretty quickly....

[sfinney]

But point being, whats an "A" really? Pretty good sized target compared to say the center of the 10 ring of Bullseye, or shooting 1" dots at 100 yds with precision rifle. We can say our top shooters shoot As (or don't shoot many Cs and Ds) as fast as their vision will let them, but thats not saying they have trained themselves to shoot a golf ball sized target on demand, with unfamiliar weapons, without match triggers.

Not saying USPSA shooters can't shoot accurately on demand, just saying most train to what is an acceptable shot at the fastest speed, and for an A thats pretty fast - but maybe not gnats ass accurate.

Lets just say I shot some national level free and standard pistol in college, and learned how to hold groups.... and it took me years to train myself to loosen up a little in USPSA and not hold the shot so long. I was always amazed how many of the IPSC type people I shot with couldn't make 1 hole groups in practice. But they would kick my but in an IPSC match. So, I took the short cut and gave up accuracy for speed. Took me years to figure out I didn't have to be less accurate, but just need to "see" faster.

Edited April 17, 2011 by sfinney

[smokshwn]

Basically the answer is no. Because any answer always trumps any lack of accuracy with a statement about speed. It is ok that it is about speed first. But let's just say so.

USPSA was never about accuracy, has never been about accuracy, and will continue to reward those who can run the fastest while aimlessly slinging bullets in any direction they choose.

There, that is the answer you seem to be searching for, however you have set up a straw man arguement (by using the term trumps).

You continue asking a question about a single aspect of a sport that openly admits it balances three factors, and then complain that every statement concerning accuracy comes with qualifiers. Of course it comes with qualifiers. Any time that you are balancing three factors, by definition the answer cannot be only about one factor. Too much power, speed suffers, too much speed, accuracy suffers, on and on it goes.

The bigger key to the sport is Freestyle. At any time it is up to the shooter to determine which and how much of any given aspect of the sport will serve them best when solving a problem. If you are slow, kick up the accuracy and shoot major. If you are blazingly fast and can handle recoil, maybe you can give up a few points. If you are blazingly fast and can shoot accurately but don't have the frame to handle major recoil maybe you can make minor work for you. All of these options are available because of the balance of Power, Accuracy, and Speed.

Edited April 17, 2011 by smokshwn

[Jim Norman]

Craig,

Well reasoned and logical arguments are not allowed on the internet, You should know that by now.

[dravz]

Why shouldn't it be about speed? That's what adds the practicality, right?

TLG just posted something similar, which is apropos:

But it’s a fallacy — and a rather obvious one, at that — to believe that slow, calm, ultra-precise shooting skill is all you need when things are closer and faster. A demo I regularly do in class involves timing myself to a precise “eyeball shot” on a target at 7yd… and then seeing how many hits I can get into an 8″ circle in the same amount of time. It’s quite a few. And all else being equal, getting shot multiple times in the upper chest will probably put most people off their “eyeball shot” game a bit, don’t you think?

[JakeMartens]

Why shouldn't it be about speed? That's what adds the practicality, right?

TLG just posted something similar, which is apropos:

But it’s a fallacy — and a rather obvious one, at that — to believe that slow, calm, ultra-precise shooting skill is all you need when things are closer and faster. A demo I regularly do in class involves timing myself to a precise “eyeball shot” on a target at 7yd… and then seeing how many hits I can get into an 8″ circle in the same amount of time. It’s quite a few. And all else being equal, getting shot multiple times in the upper chest will probably put most people off their “eyeball shot” game a bit, don’t you think?

Who aims at the eyeball, I thought it was "right between the eyes"

[Jim Norman]

Accuracy is a tactic, speed is a tactic, Fast Accuracy is the best tactic. Too Slow is a NO GO, So is Too Fast. Shoot too fast to hit and you won't win, shoot so slow you can't miss and you won't win either.

[jar]

Accuracy is a tactic, speed is a tactic, Fast Accuracy is the best tactic. Too Slow is a NO GO, So is Too Fast. Shoot too fast to hit and you won't win, shoot so slow you can't miss and you won't win either.

The problem isn't too fast, it's not accurate enough. Trying to control speed usually leads to a blown stage for me. The best stages I've shot, I got to the end and thought I called every shot, but when I compared the time to others around my skill level it was much faster.

[rvb]

Something I didn't see mentioned: Rather than restructuring the target or the scoring, perhaps through stage design the emphasis can be put on accuracy. We have fixed time scoring in our tool box, for example. Upper A zones can be utilized. No-shoots and hardcover can quickly create a penalty for too much emphasis on speed.

I too was surprised at some of the performances such as hitting the billiard balls. See what you need to see, right? Can't miss fast enough to win, right? Granted most of Top Shot has very little to do with shooting guns, but there are some examples where sight alignment and trigger control simply didn't happen.

And this talk of "acceptable accuracy" vs bullseye accuracy... not a whole lot of difference between an upper A zone and a billiard ball. In one case, points are earned for a "miss" (ie the B zone) and some points percentage is "acceptable." In the other case, a miss is, well, a miss. I shot a stage this weekend w/ 4 targets w/ only head shots available. I had 5A,3B. 62.5% hit rate and every shot earned points. You could say that was acceptable, or you could say that was roughly a 1/3 failure rate... If B zone was hardcover, you can bet my emphasis on hitting the A would have been higher.

Perhaps the sport is a little more specialized than we had led ourselves to believe. I've reflected on that, too, Coach. But I'm ok with that. Why did you get in to practical shooting? The appeal of being able to shoot a golf ball at 10 paces with any random gun, or because of the Principals of USPSA Competitions (specifically 5 and 6).

-rvb

[MoNsTeR]

Two weeks ago we had a stage where you had to shoot two plate racks at about 14 yards while leaning awkwardly around walls, one left and one right. It was amazing to see otherwise excellent shooters, including myself, struggle mightily with this task of basic marksmanship. Another stage at that same match gave you the chance to take a couple of 8" plates at 27 yards, or run up closer. One of the best Limited(!) scores was posted by someone who took the long shots.

Yes, USPSA is about accuracy.

[leadslinger275]

Top Shot is not a good test of pure marksmanship skill. I quit caring about that show during season 1 when Mike Seeklander, one of the hardest working and most talented shooters/instructors in the business, got knocked out shooting an M1 that they weren't allowed to "zero". Although entertaining, it is a reality TV show. It's like saying if you win "Survivor" you are the top survival expert!!! There have been some extremely talented and not so talented shooters compete on the show. As far as accuracy in USPSA goes, I do wish that they would make the A Zone smaller. Then again, speed is my biggest weakness!!! Let's just be real about "TOP SHOT", ratings are key. Look at the target audience, I would love to watch a reality show based on action pistol or multi-gun/3-gun. The majority of the population doesn't understand our sports, they would rather watch some dorks throw tomahawks, shoot compound bows, and argue like a bunch of sorority girls locked in a house for a month or two.

[gixxerjunky]

I look at my scores and I'm having a hard time speeding things up. Say I run a stage in 25 seconds and drop 4 charlies. The GM's and M's are doing it in 12 seconds. I can't even wrap my thoughts around how they actually do it. I feel like I run a stage fast but when the score sheets get posted I see that I don't. I'm thinking the next small match I do is basically blow through stages just absolutely fast and see how many A zone I hit. I'm sure it won't be as much as usual but I need to do something to get competitive.

[Flexmoney]

I look at my scores and I'm having a hard time speeding things up. Say I run a stage in 25 seconds and drop 4 charlies. The GM's and M's are doing it in 12 seconds. I can't even wrap my thoughts around how they actually do it. I feel like I run a stage fast but when the score sheets get posted I see that I don't. I'm thinking the next small match I do is basically blow through stages just absolutely fast and see how many A zone I hit. I'm sure it won't be as much as usual but I need to do something to get competitive.

Shooting speed is often the last place to look for saved time. Being efficient in all the other stuff is where it's at. Get your points on the targets.

Think of it kinda like a tank. The body of the tank moves the gun from place to place, but the gun still need to make the necessary shots.

[Nik Habicht]

I look at my scores and I'm having a hard time speeding things up. Say I run a stage in 25 seconds and drop 4 charlies. The GM's and M's are doing it in 12 seconds. I can't even wrap my thoughts around how they actually do it. I feel like I run a stage fast but when the score sheets get posted I see that I don't. I'm thinking the next small match I do is basically blow through stages just absolutely fast and see how many A zone I hit. I'm sure it won't be as much as usual but I need to do something to get competitive.

A lot of that is how they approach the stage: Do they shoot it with fewer positions? Are they totally fluid in movement, never stopping, where you set up in position and shoot standing? A lot of it is deciding where to engage which targets from, and then deciding how to best approach each position.

I know my entries to positions suck; conversely I know that I shoot accurately while retreating. As a consequence I often charge into positions, setting up on the innermost target, and then retreat my way out, engaging targets as I move. That approach plays to my strengths. It took me years of shooting stages to learn what works for me. I could have shortcut that immensely with dedicated practice sessions...

[gixxerjunky]

That's a good point I have a habit of stopping and shooting the positions. I feel like it's faster for me to get to a position and shoot then try and shoot to the position but I need to watch the clock I guess. I know that my movement is most of my time because when I do shoot I engage targets pretty fast.

[JakeMartens]

That's a good point I have a habit of stopping and shooting the positions. I feel like it's faster for me to get to a position and shoot then try and shoot to the position but I need to watch the clock I guess. I know that my movement is most of my time because when I do shoot I engage targets pretty fast.

You save time everywhere else but shooting.

Think about your draw, if you go to a major match say 8 stages and your draw and first shot is 1.6 compared to 1.2 that is .40x 8 stages = 3.2 seconds

your transitions between targets (huge amount of time,) so say that there are 110 targets at this match and your transitions average .15 off the top guy = 16.5 seconds

Look at movement, shooting on the move, if you are shooting on the move then you are saving time, say 1.5 seconds a stage = 12 seconds

that is over 30 seconds for the whole match or an average of 3.96 seconds a stage.

Trigger speed is great, as long as your are getting your points as well, but it is everything else that makes up the time.

[Nik Habicht]

That's a good point I have a habit of stopping and shooting the positions. I feel like it's faster for me to get to a position and shoot then try and shoot to the position but I need to watch the clock I guess. I know that my movement is most of my time because when I do shoot I engage targets pretty fast.

Right. That's where a lot of folks operate. So the next to figure out is really two things: How few positions can I hit and engage all targets, and once I hit a position, what is the most efficient way for me to shoot it? Left to right? Right to left? Leaving on steel or paper? Engaging the first target I see, even if that means that I shoot the array in a circle? Leaving the first target I see for last, to be shot as I'm backing out?

Then once you have that, and a good accuracy foundation, work on shooting on the move....

[West Texas Granny]

Yes, USPSA is about accuracy..... and speed....... and power.

From my point of view Power is a joke if an A hit is scored the same for both Major and Minor classes. As far as accuracy goes it's rather weak. It's about how fast you can sling shots and complete the COF. Also if one wants to go to a big match they better pack a lawyer too.

[ima45dv8]

Yes, USPSA is about accuracy..... and speed....... and power.

From my point of view Power is a joke if an A hit is scored the same for both Major and Minor classes. As far as accuracy goes it's rather weak. It's about how fast you can sling shots and complete the COF. Also if one wants to go to a big match they better pack a lawyer too.

Hello, Lil' Miss Sunshine!

You really don't like USPSA very much, do you? Is there anything about it with which you are satisfied?