You make the call - Reload and procedurals

[Supermoto]

0 procedurals

I'm surprised at the amount of people that want to really screw the shooter over with 8 procedurals because of what they perceive as stage designers intent. There is no intent. There is only what is written. My job is to figure out how to get the highest hit factor from that.

[MarkCO]

There is no intent. There is only what is written. My job is to figure out how to get the highest hit factor from that.

Yep!

What the stage designer "meant" does not work in USPSA, only what he wrote. For that I am SO thankful!

[mactiger]

After re-reading this thread and rolling this whole scenario around in my head, I can't see where any procedurals could be assessed because the competitor did make a reload and he did engage all the targets at some point. There were no operative words to pin a procedural on, such as "then". IMO, 8 procedurals is beating the competitor over the head with the rule book for no good reason. I tried to see where only one could be assessed, and I guess you could argue up a weak justification for it, but my call would be none.

Troy

[Corey]

After re-reading this thread and rolling this whole scenario around in my head, I can't see where any procedurals could be assessed because the competitor did make a reload and he did engage all the targets at some point. There were no operative words to pin a procedural on, such as "then". IMO, 8 procedurals is beating the competitor over the head with the rule book for no good reason. I tried to see where only one could be assessed, and I guess you could argue up a weak justification for it, but my call would be none.

Troy

good enough for me

This situation is just further proof of the need for rock solid WSBs....and to always shoot the paper first

[LT45]

All I can say is "Lord have mercy!" :wacko:

I thought it was a simple stage when I designed it...

I know better than to leave such a grey area in a WSB.

I'll try to not let it happen again THEN we won't have to have this discussion again

although it does give us something to do...

[Skydiver]

By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course.

I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this!

How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion?

No more than one mandatory reload may be required in a speed shoot. So those who have said that you can't go back and clean-up without penalty are wrong. As long as there is a reload and then a steel target is engaged, no other restrictions can be applied. That is exactly what the shooter at issue did.

This being a "Speed Shoot" is relevant because otherwise the stage would have been illegal as a "Medium Course" due to requiring more than 8 scoring hits from a single view or location in a single string (1.2.1.2). A "Speed Shoot" allows for the single view or location restriction.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Skydiver

[aztecdriver]

I've actually got a lot out of this - thank you for the inputs.

I will say that I agree with Troy that 8 procedurals would have been extreme. I wasn't running the guy - and he was pretty new as well. I was asked the question and without relooking at the stage description, I was - well, 8 procedurals eh... per shot fired.. eh, let me see that(stage description). And then FLASH I was back here remembering a similar discussion, and that's why I had the idea to post. I actually do not know what the RO did assess him. I might go look it up.

I will say this - it was also a reshoot 'god' revisit, he had a plate fail to fall after a hit.

[MarkCO]

All I can say is "Lord have mercy!"

He certainly does. We are all human, and mistakes are part and parcel. We strive to learn, reduce, communicate and move on.

[sfchorn]

So we can add "then" and "only" to the list of four-letter words?

[sperman]

All I can say is "Lord have mercy!" :wacko:

I thought it was a simple stage when I designed it...

I know better than to leave such a grey area in a WSB.

I'll try to not let it happen again THEN we won't have to have this discussion again

although it does give us something to do...

Larry has designed more stages than I've shot. If he can't write a bullet proof WSB, what chance do the rest of us have.

You guys should feel fortunate to have written stage briefings. At a couple of the matches I shoot, it's verbal.

[MarkCO]

You guys should feel fortunate to have written stage briefings. At a couple of the matches I shoot, it's verbal.

Then, by the rules (we are in the USPSA subforum, so we are not talking about other kinds of matches) the stages are not legal and so they can be shot any way you want.

Section 3.2 in the rules clearly specify a WRITTEN stage breifing be posted and read! If those rules are not being followed, then it is totally unacceptable.

[Skydiver]

You guys should feel fortunate to have written stage briefings. At a couple of the matches I shoot, it's verbal.

For USPSA and IPSC, a written stage briefing is required. See rule 3.2.1.

[Obviously MarkCO has a higher (keyboard) hit factor... not only did he reply faster above, he typed in more text as well. :-) ]

Edited March 15, 2011 by Skydiver

[MarkCO]

You guys should feel fortunate to have written stage briefings. At a couple of the matches I shoot, it's verbal.

For USPSA and IPSC, a written stage briefing is required. See rule 3.2.1.

[Obviously MarkCO has a higher (keyboard) hit factor... not only did he reply faster above, he typed in more text as well. :-) ]

GM paster, B class typer.

[Skydiver]

One of the things I take away from this thread is that not only writing good WSB a necessity, it's also not enough to just parrot the text from a classifier.

Since somebody asked about 99-28 Hillbilton Drill recently, note the stage procedure from it:

Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only T1-T3, perform a mandatory reload, and from Box A engage PP1-PP6.

compare with the OP's:

Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first.

I've not run 99-28 in a while, but a long time ago when I was a very newly minted RO, I tried to impose one procedural on a shooter who shot the steel before the paper. I was overridden by a more experienced RO when he explained that the order the arrays were engaged in was not implied in 99-28.

So time for one of my (in)famous scenarios:

If somebody was shooting 99-28, and shoots 11 shots at the steel leaving PP6 standing, reloads, and knocks down PP6, and then proceeds to shoot T1-T3, how many procedurals do they get?

My position is that they get 6 procedurals, but that is because this time the "intent" is protected by the introduction of the classifier handbook:

The nature of the project is such that there are probably undetected errors in spite of all that effort. In most cases the intent of the course will be obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

Now as for the original post, my position is 0 procedurals, because as the shooter complied with engaging all the targets, and performing a reload. In this case, the stage designer's intent is not protected. (I do like the hinted gaming of the stage by hitting all the steel, followed by the paper, and then reloading off the clock. )

[HS101]

I was the R.O. for this shooter... I made the call of 1 procedural. He was engaging the targets (he missed by hitting the plate rack, not the plate), hit slide lock, reloaded, and then (finished) took the last plate and proceeded to engage paper. He performed the mandatory reload, after "engaging" the steel. I would not have called the procedural if he had gone to paper after the reload and then picked up the plate. We talked about calling an experienced RM (ima45dv8) to decide between 1 or 8 procedurals, but we ended up moving on to the next stage.

As an aside, this was a reshoot because on his first try he kept hitting low (at the very bottom of the plaates) and had a plates fail to fall so it was deemed "range equipment failure". He had been hitting low with all shots on steel, and I think he was just ready to be off the stage.

I'm glad this question was asked, and I will be a better R.O. from the discussion

[sperman]

I can see an argument for 8 procedurals. I can see an argument for 0 procedurals. I don't see any way to call 1 procedural, regardless of how the WSB was written.

[Nik Habicht]

All I can say is "Lord have mercy!" :wacko:

I thought it was a simple stage when I designed it...

I know better than to leave such a grey area in a WSB.

I'll try to not let it happen again THEN we won't have to have this discussion again

although it does give us something to do...

Thank you for designing it, and probably building it, and putting up with us discussing it. Seriously -- I for one appreciate the contribution you made to the sport.

[Nik Habicht]

Larry has designed more stages than I've shot. If he can't write a bullet proof WSB, what chance do the rest of us have.

You guys should feel fortunate to have written stage briefings. At a couple of the matches I shoot, it's verbal.

You've got a good chance. There's not a one among us who's never made a mistake in the design, the building, or the writing of the WSB. It happens, shooters drive a truck through the opening, and designers/builders learn from it....

If you want something specific, go find the biggest gamers at your match, and ask them to help you write it up.....

[Nik Habicht]

As stage designers, lets go the full mile on our end, so that the shooters can enjoy the experience more.

I think most of us are, limited only by our experience and current ability.....

Much like shooting, stage design is part art form, as is writing the WSB.....

[ima45dv8]

Much like shooting, stage design is part art form, as is writing the WSB.....

And sometimes...reading them.

[JAFO]

If you want something specific, go find the biggest gamers at your match, and ask them to help you write it up.....

The biggest gamers I know will "help" me write it up so they can still game it!

[MarkCO]

If you want something specific, go find the biggest gamers at your match, and ask them to help you write it up.....

The biggest gamers I know will "help" me write it up so they can still game it!

TRUE!

[Steven Cline]

the word then or after isnt in the WSB,,, He complied with the WSB, he shot the paper, he performed a reload, and he shot the steel, Nothing in that WSB says anything about when the reload must occur. WSB should read Engage the paper THEN mandatory reload THEN engage steel. Since the words THEN isnt in WSB you can do it when ever you want.

I agree.

The shooter engaged the steel, reloaded and engaged the paper. A reload was performed. I would not give any procedurals as the requirements of the WSB were met.

[Steven Cline]

8 procedurals.

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

Agreed. 8 Procedurals for shooting the steel prior to the mandatory reload instead of the paper targets per the stage description - assuming the missed shot was fired in the direction of the steel targets. In my opinion, it's a poorly written description due to the last sentence, which I feel is unneeded.

The procdurals aren't given for shooting the steel first (WSB said arrays can be shot in any order (paraphrase)), but rather that the 2nd array was engaged without a mandatory reload after the first array was finished.

The WSB didn't say "finish" the arrary or some other version of "hit each target." It said engage. A target is engaged when it is shot at. If the shooter shot at each steel he engaged them and satisfied the WSB.

"10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.4 or 9.9.2 apply."

We wouldn't (shouldn't) give a revolver shooter 8 procedurals for choosing to shoot 2 shots on 2 of the paper targets and 1 shot on the other 2 paper targets, reload and shoot the steel, reload for the last 2.

The WSB was satisfied as written and did not prohibit shooting missed targets engage before the reload.

[sperman]

You guys should feel fortunate to have written stage briefings. At a couple of the matches I shoot, it's verbal.

Then, by the rules (we are in the USPSA subforum, so we are not talking about other kinds of matches) the stages are not legal and so they can be shot any way you want.

Section 3.2 in the rules clearly specify a WRITTEN stage breifing be posted and read! If those rules are not being followed, then it is totally unacceptable.

Another shooter brought up this thread at the match yesterday. (It was on a stage with no WSB.) You should have heard the chorus of "it's a club match, get over it." You would think the first line of the rule book says "level one matches are exempt from everything."